The Release of the Audio Documentary: “We Warned Them: Freedom Village” with Creator Margaret Mayer.

Join us for the Release of the Audio Documentary: “We Warned Them: Freedom Village” with Creator Margaret Mayer. A Deep Dive into an IFB Troubled Teen School

Margaret is a 24-year-old artist and activist originally from Rochester, NY. In 2020, Margaret became aware of the Troubled Teen Industry after hearing horror stories from her friends who had been trafficked to a private, for-profit religious, residential school located near her hometown (Freedom Village, USA). This led her to research and further investigate Independent Baptist Homes. Through networking, she connected with more survivors from Freedom Village and joined them in launching the We Warned Them Campaign in September 2021. She is passionate about storytelling and building genuine connections with people.

Transcript

We Warned Them

Guy Stephens  0:11  

Well, hello and welcome. It is Tuesday, December 5, one o'clock here on the East Coast. And, uh, gosh, let me think about this 10 o'clock on the West Coast and I say 10 o'clock on the west coast because we have a special guest joining us today from the West Coast. And of course, you may be somewhere else in an entirely different timezone. And that's awesome. It might even be Saturday or not Saturday, I'm thinking about Thursday here, it might already be Wednesday for you. If you're ever in the southern hemisphere, as often we get guests that are joining us, from New Zealand and Australia. So welcome. This is of course not our usual time for our alliance against seclusion restraint live. We are here because we have a special program and something's kind of timely and relevant. So we wanted to kind of add an extra bonus ASR live for you, if you are already joined us live. And I say a couple people have already popped on. You probably know the drill here, which is tell us in the chat, who you are and where you're from. Because we love to see where people are joining us from and who they are. Of course, my name is Guy Stevens. I'm the founder and executive director of the alliance against seclusion restrain, if you're not familiar with the Alliance, we were formed not quite five years ago, we're headed on the five year mark here very, very quickly. But we were formed, really initially with a strong focus on the issues of restraint seclusion happening in schools across the country. Of course, our focus has continued to look at things like restraint, seclusion, but it's even broader than that. It's not only restraint, seclusion and restraint, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, corporal punishment. And it's not just in schools that we're concerned, we're concerned about these things happening anywhere that they might be happening. And we're also concerned about the many things that are often done to children and young people in the name of behavior. And of course, that leads us to have a strong interest in a lot of different settings and situations. Many of you may know that we are strongly kind of connected and allied with organizations that are that are looking at things happening in what's called the troubled teen industry. And today's guest is going to be talking to us a little bit about that as well. So at any rate, our vision and our work is really about, you know, well, I think making the world a better place. But moving away from many of the things that we're doing to people in the name of behavior, and really trying to do better, we advocate for trauma informed and neuroscience aligned approaches. It's about relationship driven and collaborative approaches to working with other humans. So as I mentioned, really excited about our guests here today. And this is a special program that we've kind of moved into the schedule, just because I thought it would be something really great to talk about, because there's a new podcast series, it's out that I wanted to bring to your attention. So I'm really excited to have Margaret Mayer joining us today. And I'm going to be talking a little bit about Margaret in a second, give me a little bit more background. But we're gonna be talking about a podcast series that Margaret has created. And you know why that's something you might be interested in learning and listening to, I do want to let you know that as always, these sessions are available live. And we streaming live on LinkedIn, on Facebook and on YouTube, you can go back after the fact and listen to a recording on any of these platforms. And we also make them available as an audio only podcast. So that's always exciting. Because if you want to listen on the go, you can just go to Apple podcast, or Spotify. And you can listen wherever you might want to listen, I do want to let you know, we've got a lot of things coming in store for you in 2024. It's hard to believe but the New Year is right around the corner as we come around into December here. And we're actually going to be doing some things in addition to having we actually have almost completely booked our 20/24 schedule, we've got a lot of amazing guests lined up for the upcoming year, we're also going to be getting some support from a number of advertisers who are going to be helping to support our work to create this podcast. And in fact, in the new year, we'll be introducing some of those sponsors that are helping us to, you know, bring this to you. And that really is something that's meaningful to me because, you know, this is work that of course, takes time and resources and, and money to create and it's great that we've got people that are going to be supporting our work as we're moving forward. So with all that said, let's go ahead and introduce to you our special guests that we have with us here today. And I've just magically brought Margaret up on the screen but let me tell you a little bit about Margaret. And then we're gonna get started having a conversation so Margaret is a 24 year old artist and activist originally from Rochester, New York and of course right now in California found that out in In 2020, Margaret became aware of the troubled teen industry. After hearing horror stories from her friends who had been trafficked to private for profit religious Residential School, located near her hometown, which was called Freedom village USA. This led her to research and further investigate Independent Baptist homes. Through networking, she connected with more survivors from Freedom village, and join them in launching the we warn them campaign in September 2021. She's passionate about storytelling and building genuine connections with people. And we're here to talk a little bit about a new podcast series that that Margaret's graded. So Margaret, welcome, really excited to have you here today. And thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for joining us. We're going to talk a little bit about something you've been working on, but probably, you know, talk a little bit more broadly about some of these issues, and kind of what brought you into that. I do want to let people that are watching live now. Please, in the chat, let us know who you are and where you're joining us from. It's always great to see, you know that we often have people joining us from around the world, it's often great to see you know, kind of where people are connecting and listening to from today. So let's get into this. You describe yourself as an artist and an activist and of course, a storyteller. And, you know, the the troubled teen industry, of course, it's something that I'm pretty familiar with now. But there's a time in my life that I would not even have imagined something like the troubled teen industry existed. And it sounds like from your intro there that perhaps you were there as well and wouldn't have imagined that there was this, this kind of thing that we refer to as a troubled teen industry. So for listeners and viewers that might be joining us that might not have heard this term before. And once you once you see it, and you know it, it's hard to imagine somebody not having heard about this, but what do we mean when we say the troubled teen industry? What is the troubled teen industry?

Margaret Mayer  7:01  

Yeah, so I like to start by saying it's a multi billion dollar underground network in America, that is for profit residential programs. And I kind of describe it as like a tree. So if it's like troubled teen industry, in the middle, all the branches are like conversion therapy, Wilderness Therapy camps, religious boarding schools, behavior modification camps. And some military schools sometimes can fall under that branch. But essentially, the common thread is that they're all private, and oftentimes not regulated. So that's why some of these extreme stories and things happen inside of them.

Guy Stephens  7:45  

And, you know, just go into the the, you know, you know, the troubled teenage Why is it called the troubled teen industry? What's, what's the, you know, this network that you've described? Like, why does it exist? What was the intent of it? And, you know, why troubled teen? What is that all about?

Margaret Mayer  8:03  

Right? I mean, I would almost argue that sometimes the name troubled teen industry is problematic, because it's putting the focus on that the kids are troubled. And that's who, that's how they're marketing it right, is that if your kid is troubled, and that could range from a wide variety of thing, maybe your kids smoked weed for the first time, or maybe they actually have a juvenile charge or something. That's the kids that are being sent here. But from my interviews, and when I started learning about this, what I noticed a lot of the times was that the kids weren't as much troubled as they were just coming from financially disadvantaged areas coming from cities that are over policed. And so yeah, I would I wouldn't almost Yeah, no,

Guy Stephens  8:53  

no, I appreciate that. You've said that, and I'll be honest with you, I've been part of part of programs, you know, even programs that are that are well intended, where they they talk about how they're to help troubled youth. And, you know, of course, in education settings, we often have programs that are designed to help children with disabilities and, you know, we see things like, programs for kids that are labeled as emotionally disturbed. And those kinds of labels always really bothered me quite a bit. Because I think we're often pathologizing human beings that in the name of behavior, and I, you know, if we want to talk about, you know, some of these programs, I mean, these are programs that are often perhaps, you know, perhaps supporting and supporting may be the wrong word here but, you know, kids that have trauma kids that have have backgrounds that have been less than ideal, you know, kids that are coming from tough situations. And I agree with you, I think, using that terminology, it really does kind of put it on kids. And what I've seen, and I'm sure that you've seen far more than I have. But through the work that we do at the Alliance, we've had the opportunity to work with a lot of organizations and individuals that have been raising awareness speaking out trying to change laws around this kind of troubled team industry. And of course, what I've seen is that, you know, the people that I've met that have, and you use the word been trafficked, which is probably a good way to put it, but have ended up in some of these troubled teen programs are often individuals that have been displaying very typical normal behaviors for kids. And there's often expectations around children and beliefs that I think are leading people to this idea that somehow they're their child is broken and needs to be fixed, when in fact, that's often, you know, not the case. So So it's interesting that you bring that point up, because I think, you know, it's funny, because in other contexts when I hear, you know, a troubled youth, I like that really bothers me. But I've gotten so used to calling this like the troubled teen industry. And I've never really thought about that for a second about really what that's that same, but it is problematic. Yeah,

Margaret Mayer  11:28  

I mean, I think it's a trap, that terminology is attractive to the target audience, right. And oftentimes, the target audience is the parents, right? Because that's who is going to pay the large amount of money to send their child away. And they kind of market it as this, you know, one, one size fits all, you know, if your kid is struggling is troubled, well, let's just ship them, oftentimes multiple states away to another program, which is why I use the word trafficked. And we can get into that, because I've definitely been careful about using that word. Because people have been sent specifically to freedom village for different reasons, some were court ordered, some were sent by their parents. But I think the fact that the in at Freedom village, a lot of these kids were working for free on the on the property. And the number of sexual abuse cases that came out of this place, is very concerning.

Guy Stephens  12:37  

So there's this network around the around the country and even beyond the country, because I know that there are places that kind of go outside of the the borders here in the United States, that people have been sent to, which of course, introduces a whole host of other issues. But there's so this this network of these, you know, facilities, you know, boarding schools and the promise being made to parents families is you've got a troubled child and send them away, and we're going to fix them. I mean, is that essentially kind of the pitch? And are there other pathways? You know, I'm aware that, you know, sometimes there's other pathways that, you know, kids might find themselves there might even be professionals that are recommending placements like this? How are other ways that kids end up in these facilities? Yeah,

Margaret Mayer  13:25  

so I mean, I, the first person that I interview and how I got involved with this, he got into some trouble in his early teens, and had the choice between going to juvie or going to freedom village. So I have suspicions that there may be some phishing is happening on the legal side of things, because why are judges and people recommending going to this place? If you listen to even the first episode, you'll hear that this is not appropriate for kids to be going to? Um, but yeah, I mean, in his situation, it was, I think, spend like a year and a half in juvie, or be sent away to this program. And you know, it's marketed. This one specifically in upstate New York is right on a lake. You know, they have a horse therapy program where you can take care of the horses as a form of therapy. But it's really just taking care of this pastures private farm. So on paper, this looks way more attractive than juvie.

Guy Stephens  14:33  

Right? So, you know, we'll dive into the specifics here in a minute, but I just want to kind of set the stage a little bit more with some of the the general background. So you know, we've got this network, you know, send us Your, your troubled children. And we're going to fix them and of course, they the problem that I think I'm aware of and that you're aware of is that much of what Many of these programs are doing, not only are not helpful to kids are harmful are traumatizing are. So just talk to me a little bit about, you know, what, what do some of these facilities look like? I mean, what's so you know, kind of beyond the promise of you know, which already is somewhat problematic. What are some of these places look like and wire, these places, things that we need to be concerned about? Yeah,

Margaret Mayer  15:29  

I wanted to add one thing before. Your last question on another avenue is the foster care system, which I don't think is talked about enough. But I've had friends and someone Kayleigh, who was in our we warned them I mean, she was sent to programs strictly because they needed a place for her to go as a as just housing. So that's also

Guy Stephens  15:54  

an issue. And you know, I mean, I think about cases like Cornelius Frederick's, who was, was killed in a pulmonary strain at a residential facility. And, you know, I mean, yeah, that and I'm glad you bring that up, because that's certainly another pathway. People sometimes think that it's only the only wealthy parents that are, have the means essential to but it can really be people from really all walks of life and from very different environments and settings. Yeah,

Margaret Mayer  16:26  

and I feel like that's important to talk about, because oftentimes, it's the wealthy people that are, can share their stories, you know, have have the privilege. I mean, I love what Paris Hilton has done and how she's spoken out about this thing. But in reality, she's the minority of the kids that are being affected. So, yeah,

Guy Stephens  16:48  

but it's very easy when you have a, you know, somebody that's high profile, and again, not not in any way negative, but it mean, that suddenly you can become a face for something, and there are many faces and voices that might not be getting, you know, seen and heard and valued in the conversation, which is really, which is important. I mean, it's important that that, you know, kind of the diversity of people that are impacted are heard. Yeah, yeah. Tell us a little bit about the me, you know, again, what's, you know, we, you know, some people may have heard some of the stories. You know, you mentioned Paris Hilton, of course, that that's, you know, gotten some media coverage. But, you know, what are the kinds of things that are being done in these facilities that are so troubling.

Margaret Mayer  17:38  

Yeah, so I would say the first just like to put it on a map, oftentimes, these places are in very isolated areas. So with the case of freedom village, it was located on a lake, no neighbors around in a very rural area. So that's problem. I would argue, number one, because a lot of times the kids don't have anywhere to go if there is a problem, you know, they can't even really run away, because they don't know where they are. And they're in the middle of nowhere. Of

Guy Stephens  18:04  

course, that happens. I mean, we've, we've seen in the news, the stories of kids that have attempted to run away from facilities like this, and yeah, you're right. I mean, I never really thought about the geography. But you know, when you want to control people, certainly when you isolate them, and I know there's many more ways that they isolate them from the outside world, which again, are troubling. So So tell us more. I mean, what, what happens here?

Margaret Mayer  18:27  

Yes. So, you know, Upon arrival, kids are often stripped, searched, all their belongings are taken from them, and then they're immediately segregated between boys and girls. There's really weird rules. And I'm talking about freedom village, specifically now, but a lot of these there's a theme, you know, with between all of these, but a lot of strange rules, like not being allowed to look at another gender. And if you look at another gender, then you're punished. And then in terms of what an actual day usually looks like, they're the the kids have described to me like a loud bell like ringing alarm school bells at like 6am. This was a religious program, so they had to do prayers. And then immediately after prayers going into chores, for most of the day, and then throughout the day, some kids would go to the school, but as we found out, the school was not involved with the New York State Board of Education. It was through a private religious education called paces. Which I guess they're allowed to do. But the problem is that these kids who were all in high school, were going thinking that they were going to get ge their GED thinking that they were going to get high school credit, and a lot and most of the times they got out and they did it. So they weren't even really providing an education and then In terms of punishment, they had this thing called the woodpile, which is where kids would walk in a circle, holding pieces of wood in for hour stretches. So they would literally walk back and forth in a parking lot, carrying a piece of wood, dropping it picking back up. And this was the main form of punishment at Freedom village. And

Guy Stephens  20:27  

typically speaking, you know, whether it be freedom village, or some of these other facilities, there's a lot of emphasis for my understanding on kind of compliance and control. Right? So there's a lot of things like point in level systems and, you know, Can you can you explain some of the things that are in place in a place like this, and, you know, in terms of, and I also happen to know, from, you know, people that I've work with here that not only is there a lot of compliance and control, there's a lot of things that are done to people in the name of compliance and control, things like restraint and isolation and seclusion. Talk a little bit more about the kinds of things that we might see in place in a program like this.

Margaret Mayer  21:12  

Yeah, so the level system was the main one here, and the bottom level was literally called no level. And during the day, you would often be put in a room sometimes with other kids, and not be allowed to talk not be allowed to look anyone writing Bible verses over and over again, and most of the kids on no level had to do multiple shifts of the woodpile, so doing a four hour stretch in the morning, four hour stretch of the night and of walking back and forth. And then slowly, you could raise up to a b level C level, and then you get to more of the higher levels of junior staff. And those were pretty much just the kind of the became like the pastor's right hand man, the the person that was in charge of this school, his name was Fletcher brothers. And oftentimes, you know, they would get special, if you were on that highest level, a special privilege would look like being able to leave the property to get an ice cream. And a lot of the times what they do is they incentivize other kids to punish each other to call each other out. So that one can raise in a level and be pushed down. Yeah.

Guy Stephens  22:32  

So in your experience, you know, and based on your research, what's the impact on someone that that experiences this, I mean, you know, the, the, the glossy brochure with the pictures of the pony, you know, promise that, you know, we're going to work to help your child, but it seems to me from the conversations I've had, and the people that I've known, and knowing what's being done to people that that's not what's happening. So I mean, what's the impact that, you know, a stay at a place like freedom village has on someone? Yeah, I

Margaret Mayer  23:06  

mean, I would Complex PTSD from the second you get there, even from leaving, I mean, it's traumatizing. Too often, to go from a city to the rural area. I mean, I remember the first kid that I interviewed, he said, he had never seen a cow before, you know, so there's a lot of culture shock, and then being completely isolated from your community, often leads to depression, anxiety, a whole a lot of times, whatever the child is, are the teen is already dealing with, after freedom village, it's, it's just exacerbated, from whatever that from whatever that problem was, you know, these these things like the no level system, they really encourage shame. You know, I think there's, that's, that's why I would argue this isn't really rehabilitative. Because what are you what are you teaching these kids that if you tell on your friend, then you get to raise in the level system, right?

Guy Stephens  24:09  

And eventually, you know, I mean, eventually, you are subjecting people to things that you were subjected to, as you go up to that level. I mean, it's the whole the whole idea of what happens and I mean, it's, it's terribly manipulative, and, of course, terribly harmful. And I'm sure that, you know, people even leave with a lot of a lot of guilt and shame over. I'm sure when that realization hits that at one point, you know, if you went up in that level system and became kind of the oppressor, I'm sure that is a tough realization when and if people have that. So so we've got a general sense of this. We've got a general sense of there's this, this this industry out there that has been built around a promise As to take teens who in some way are not meeting your expectations are having difficulty or have gotten in trouble. And you're going to send them off to us. And we're going to do these things and fix them. And of course, you know how it sounds to a parent or even maybe someone that's professionally in a capacity of making these decisions might sound like something that is positive, but it's anything but in many, many cases. So let's get a little bit more specific. So you, like me, at one point probably had no knowledge of this happening. So how did you first begin to learn about the troubled teen industry? How did that? How was that something kind of got on your radar? Yeah, super

Margaret Mayer  25:44  

unexpected. I mean, I grew up in Rochester in the suburbs. And then I moved to New York City. I'm 20 2019 around there. And then in 2020, I was hanging out in a community garden, and Brooklyn was smoking weed with some guys. And they were like, oh, yeah, we just, we just got out of Rochester. And I was like, Rochester. I was like, oh, that's where I'm from. And they kind of looked at me, like, what? And I was like, what's, what's wrong with Rochester, and they literally told me, You will not believe us if we tell you. And I was like, try me. And that was the first interview after like, 20 minutes of us talking. I knew that what they were saying was going to be important and that I wanted to document it. So I just casually asked if I could turn on my phone recorder. And that turned into the first interview, which is featured in the first episode, it's we've done with a bunch of different interviews. But yeah,

Guy Stephens  26:53  

let's just call that out real quick, so that people can can go and bookmark that if they want to, or or, you know, put it put it in something that won't listen to so you've got this series that you've done, about, why don't you Why don't you tell us a little bit about the series. And I think Courtney is gonna bring the link up here as well. But what is this series that you've created? So you want to hear, but, you know, tell us a little bit about the series? Yeah, it's

Margaret Mayer  27:18  

six episodes. So I've been calling it an audio documentary. And the six episodes weave together around 30 interviews, of people across the four decades, that freedom village was open, of people that were connected to the to freedom village, so some former staff, some people that were born there, my friends who were part of the last group at Freedom village, before it was shut down in 2019. And it also weaves together interviews with my partner, who's a clinical therapist. And so she accompany me on a lot of the interviews. And so throughout the series, we also get to hear more of a psychological perspective on just her expertise on what she's been observing. Especially, she had never heard about the troubled teen industry, either. So the first episode kind of opens the door on to what it is, and then each episode, yeah, you can click on the link here that takes you to the website. Each episode has a theme. So talking about institutionalization, the history, how is it a cult, the aftermath, the long term aftermath? And then the final episode is called Where are they now where we talk about what happened? And the collective of we warn them?

Guy Stephens  28:41  

Okay, great, great. And I didn't want to interrupt you. But I just wanted to make sure that like, early on, we bookmark this for people so that they can, they can go and they can listen to this and they can. So you have this initial conversation, and you turn on your phone and you start recording you. You at some point, think yourself like, I'm going to I'm going to do something about this. I'm going to I'm going to make a pocket. I mean, how does that lead to that one recorded conversation lead to this podcast series? Yeah, I

Margaret Mayer  29:07  

mean, I was just inspired. And I, you know, had it on recording. And then, you know, immediately the day after you kind of wake up and was like, Oh, what did I what do I have here? And so I immediately went to Google. And I just started researching, and I could barely find anything, which was shocking, because this place was open for 40 years. There had been like two local newspapers that had written about it. And then the biggest thing I found was a Reddit thread. You know, Reddit, there's a huge subculture community there, but there had been a thread of someone had posted their story and there was over I think, like, 200 comments on that Reddit of people being like, Yo, I went here, I went here, this is crazy. And so that just showed me that There was clearly people that are interested in speaking out. But then a lack of actual media talking about this.

Guy Stephens  30:09  

And of course, you were from the area and knew nothing about me, which, which leads

Margaret Mayer  30:14  

me to, you know, I went back to visit my family that summer. And I immediately just started asking people, I mean, this I grew up in Rochester, this was in Watkins Glen area. So it was about a 40 minute drive away from where I specifically grew up. And so I went up there and just started asking people questions, and I usually got two responses. It was either I have no idea what you're talking about, or why are you asking about this? And it was kind of, I remember going to the the local town bar, and kind of people were turning my hands with, like, Who's this? Who's this girl? Why is she asking about this place? And I think a lot of people in the local community knew what was going on, but felt like they couldn't really do anything about it. It was like, you know, this really abusive place has been here for a really long time. They keep to themselves. Some people describe to me Oh, I, you know, I picked up a kid that was trying to run away, oh, I saw a kid that was trying to run away. One person described that they their house was broken into in the early 90s. And their food was stolen. That's what the kids stole was the food because they were so hungry.

Guy Stephens  31:36  

So as you begin to dig into this, your, you know, you had a couple of conversations, you began doing the research, you began asking questions. You know, what were some of the what were some of the stories that you heard? Or what were some of the things that you found? That came to me is, you know, there was obviously something here. I mean, this wasn't just like a random conversation you had, suddenly you're digging into this, you know, like, oh, there's something here that it's interesting. So what were some of those stories that you were hearing from people? And, you know, tell us a little bit about, you know, kind of what you learned as you began to do this research?

Margaret Mayer  32:10  

Yeah. So I went back to my friend in New York, and I was like, hey, I want to, you know, continue interviewing people. And so we actually, me, him. And my girlfriend, we took a road trip upstate, and he introduced me to three of his friends who had also been in the program. And I remember, she's featured in episode two, Angel, and she describes to me one of the punishments. I think she tried to run away or she didn't, she didn't follow some instruction. And they kicked her out to the hallway. And they showed showed shone a light on her face all night. And in terms of, like sleep deprivation, and this girl, she, I think she was 14 at the time, she was sent to freedom Village at 13. It had been a couple of months, she was 14. And she's in the hallway, being punished with this light in her face. And, you know, I think it's, it's different when you when you hear a someone describing their abuse, you know, 10 years after it happened 20 years after it happened. But to hear her describe it so nonchalantly, like she was like, oh, yeah, this just happened to me. And that was almost the most troubling part of it was that this was her reality, you know.

Guy Stephens  33:39  

And thinking about the people that you have interviewed for the series and the people that you've met, you know, we talked earlier, kind of generally about how people ended up there. But thinking about the stories of the people that you've talked to, how do people end up at Freedom village? How did the people that you came in contact with? What what got them there in the first place?

Margaret Mayer  34:02  

Yeah, I mean, it really varies. You know, one kid I met was just smoking a lot of too much weed. His parents thought he was smoking too much weed drinking too much and was like, we don't really want to deal with this problem internally, we're gonna send it away. You know, some kids were having anger management problems, you know, having outbursts and, but I really think it's just families that have been that have been drained of resources. You know, a lot of the times families are dealing with poverty, you know, are dealing with these larger system systems of oppression and raising a kid is hard, you know, and then when these programs are going into these communities, and specifically targeting these families, you know, I didn't hear about this. You know, my family wasn't targeted from this. They weren't sending you know, pamphlets to my door any thing. And so they're targeting these families. And oftentimes, this is the cheapest option. I mean, I remember, Angel said that her mom was just looking for a place to send her away. And this was the cheapest one. Mm hmm.

Guy Stephens  35:17  

And once once a way. So now I don't know about freedom village, and maybe you can fill this in a little bit as well. But my my understanding, you know, from some of the folks that I've talked to over the years, even getting to a facility, sometimes is itself rather traumatic. I mean, we've heard stories about, you know, young people essentially being kidnapped from their own homes and being taken against their will. Were you finding these kinds of things happening that the people that you talk to that were going to freedom village, you know, how were people ending up there, where, you know, what, what was what that that look like in your conversations?

Margaret Mayer  35:59  

Um, so I have not heard of any cases of the transport services, which you're talking about. But I know that's very common in a lot of troubled teen schools, which, for people that don't know, oftentimes the parents will consent to large men coming into a child's room at night, and taking them away. Or pulling them in a car in a parking lot. Legal kidnapping, as I say, because the parents sign away at this, and I don't think

Guy Stephens  36:29  

it shouldn't be legal. It shouldn't be legal. Yeah. I mean, I really think

Margaret Mayer  36:33  

maybe parents don't understand how traumatizing This is. And a lot of the times it's kind of formatted as well, your child doesn't listen to instructions, they're not going to go themselves. So we need to take force. In terms of freedom village, I talked to a couple of kids that were that were tricked into being sent there. Like they were saying, Hey, we're gonna, you know, take you on a little road trip today and then have their backpacks in the back, they show up at Freedom village, and it's like, well, you're leaving now.

Guy Stephens  37:04  

But how horrifying to be dropped off in the middle of nowhere. You don't know where you are? Near anything. And the people that you you love and you trust are driving away? Yeah, yeah. Now. So let's imagine for a second that somebody is is dropped off there at Freedom Village. Now, let's, let's assume. And you can tell me it's a bad assumption if you want. But let's assume that someone is doing this apparent has made a choice to do this, because they feel they have no other choice. And they're doing it because they they believe in some way that this is going to be helpful to their child, right. But but let's imagine now that the child gets there, and these bad things are happening. And I've heard different stories from different people that have had various experiences. But what about communication home? Well, I mean, you know, I would imagine I'd be wanting to call home and saying, You got to get me out of here. This is horrible. Tell me about that. I mean, tell me what happens in terms of once somebody gets there, what happens with communication that they might have happening with people at home? Is that restricted? Is that controlled? You know, I mean, you would think that if he's really bad things were happening, that parent might jump in the car and say, Oh, I'm gonna come to get my child, but I'm guessing that it freedom village, probably much like other facilities that one communication might be limited in to. It might be. Oh, gosh, what's the best word? I mean, you know, I mean, it might be dishonest than just untruthful in terms of populated, right, right. So tell me what that looks like.

Margaret Mayer  38:43  

I mean, a problem getting their parents watch a video that pretty much it says, Do not believe anything your child says. Your child may say that they hate it here, but just know that this program takes a while, you know, for a child to get used to so that they prime the parents from day one, like if your child does anything, don't believe them, which is problematic because we need to be listening to kids like they are oftentimes more truthful than adults. And yeah, then in terms of actual communication, all phone calls were monitored. So there was always someone on the line listening to the call between the parent and the child, and all mail was read. And if a you know, lead, if there was a letter that talked about the woodpile, and how tired they are from hauling wood for all these hours, oftentimes it would be blacked out with a marker or just not sent at all. I had a girl that commented on my Instagram that was saying, the they never gave her her parents letters. So for a whole year, she just thought her parents didn't care. But their parents were sending a letter and then they didn't give it to her which Just which is a part of the isolation tactic, you know, in this is profitable in terms of the longer a kid stays there, the more money freedom village makes. So there's not an incentive to get the kid ready to go. It's more of an incentive to keep the kid there for as long as possible. So they don't really want the parents and the kids talking. Yeah.

Guy Stephens  40:29  

Somebody just asked a question. It's a great question. Jennifer said, Did parents ever received blacked out letters? Did that not raise concern for any buddy? Yeah, that's a good question. You would think that if somebody was getting mail that looked like it had been redacted that they would be like, you know, or were they some way prime for that? Yeah. Yeah.

Margaret Mayer  40:48  

I mean, honestly, I don't know. Like, I would I would love and this is a person people I'd love to talk to is the parents, you know, I feel like I've interviewed a lot of kids that have been through this. But I don't I don't really know, I

Guy Stephens  41:04  

would think that sounds like another season. Season two, it would be interesting, and, you know, so on that topic, you know, again, you know, I think that in many areas that, that we are often misled, you know, as, as parents, you know, whatever role you might be in, there are some times those out there, that might be misleading us, in terms of, you know, the best way to support a child or, you know, what a child needs. And, of course, you know, people are led to believe things that, honestly can be quite harmful to their children. And, you know, it's, it's pretty upsetting. But, you know, again, assuming a parent is doing this, with some intent of like, oh, there's a problem that we've got to fix. And somehow this is going to help you, I would have to imagine and, you know, again, based on some conversations I've had, knowing that, you know, being traumatized, and in this kind of facility, would really harm a relationship between the family, I mean, what, what's the impact? I mean, let's say somebody is there for a couple of years, and then comes out of freedom village, I mean, what, what is the impact on the family? And, you know, I mean, you know, again, if you were there, under your parents, you know, direction, and you know, these things were being done to you, I can only imagine, you know, how you might feel, then I mean, what's the impact billing in your experience on kind of, like, what that's done to baseline,

Margaret Mayer  42:48  

lack of trust, lack of trust, I mean, kids come back, and they just don't trust their parents in any capacity. And then I would also say, some confusion, especially from the parents standpoint, and this is one of my became ablator motivation was to have something that kids could share with their parents, you know, because a lot of times kids tell their parents what happens, and some of the extreme kick cases, and it is hard to believe. And then on top of that, having to accept the fact that, like me, as the parent was the one, people want to believe that, and I unfortunately, talked to some people that didn't even tell their parents, they were almost given up on it. They were just like, you know, what, like,

Guy Stephens  43:37  

I mean, you'd almost think like they sent me here, they must know what it is, you know, even if they didn't, you might assume that they knew what it was, they knew what they were doing. So, I mean, I can see that building a tremendous amount of resentment. And I can see the potential for damage relationships. And like you said, it's a really hard leap to make, to put yourself in a position to think, gee, I sent my child here and my child was harmed. My child was traumatized by this. And I'm sure there are people that have a hard time even making that connection and realizing that they're there. They're part of it. Even even if you know that was not their intent. Yeah, yeah. So freedom village, of course, was a religious, you know, they were religious organization, and not all, not all of these, you know, not all these, you know, facilities are, but how does that make freedom village different from say, a non religious boarding school type of situation?

Margaret Mayer  44:37  

Yeah, so this was a more extreme sector. It's called independent fundamentalist Baptist religion, which is very fire and brimstone. The preacher very intense. A lot of the main tactic is through fear. So a lot of damnation talk of hell. This was, you know, the kids were subjected on Wednesdays and Sundays to often listen to two hour long sermons of this man, just I kid you not like screaming in front of them. So that's what makes it a little bit different. There's a great series that actually you may have seen it circulating around the internet on HBO max right now it's called Let us pray. And this Docu series dives into the they call it the IFP the IFP movement, which I would argue started in the 50s. Some prominent names Jack Hyles, Lester Rohloff, Jerry Falwell. All these are this kind of collective network that make a lot of money from the troubled teen industry that can help finance their campaigns, and they have political connections, as well. Yeah.

Guy Stephens  46:03  

I want to hit on a couple of comments here real quick. And Heather said the troubled teen industry is predatory and creates barriers between parents and their children. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. mentioned a case in Pennsylvania where the judge received kickbacks for referring children to a specific program. It might be, let's see, it might be a different state. Yeah, and I've heard things like that as well, that potentially there are financial incentives that have led people to recommend facilities. And of course, you know, we've seen that kind of thing happen and play out in a lot of different contexts. The common denominator is often harm being done to people. Lynn Crawford, who, of course, is doing amazing work around the Judge Rotenberg Center. And, you know, of course, another horrific facility, one that uses electroshock on autistic individuals that are in their care. Said amazing work, Margaret. And, you know, thank you both for your hard work. Sam mentioned that comment. Oh, here's another one. Jennifer, and thank you for sharing this said I was there. And I never told my parents about anything that went on there until I was an adult, then they didn't believe me, because they knew the preacher, you know, slash founder.

Margaret Mayer  47:23  

Yeah, something that I want to say just about the preacher and founder is that this man was a narcissist. And like most narcissists are extremely charming. I think he was able to keep up this act for so long was because he was able to get so many people to believe in his mission and support him. Yeah, I mean, just a really intense, charismatic person that was able to trick a lot of people for money, and for power, and a lot of the times the power was having control over these kids.

Guy Stephens  48:04  

Yeah. And, you know, as you say, that I'm just kind of thinking to myself that, and it's the harm. It's the harm that was done. I mean, you know, I don't mean this in the wrong way. But, you know, I, I can forgive greed more easily that it can forgive doing harm to other people to do harm to other human beings, you know? And I mean, that's what we're talking about. And when you're putting dollars on, on, you know, harming people and causing trauma. It's, it's hard to imagine much that's worse than that. Yeah. So, talk to me about we warn them and how, you know, this, this podcast is related to we warn them and what we warn them is, yeah,

Margaret Mayer  48:50  

so you know, my friend connected me to his friends that had just left the program. And then, you know, once I decided that I wanted to do a series, I wanted to get as many voices as possible. And so I started going on Facebook, and I eventually realized that there was already a collective of survivors. There's a Facebook group called Freedom village truth, which is specifically for people that have been to free to village and I quickly met the admin of that page, Jas, and she shared her story with me about being trafficked from California to Rochester. And then in 2019, right, as my friends left her, the sole freedom village was going to shut down because they were bankrupt. I think it was like something close to $3 million. So they had to sell the property. And then as many troubled teen schools do, they wanted to relocate, change names keep staff to South Carolina, and so jazz and a collective of five I have 10 other survivors. They ran together and organized a community town hall meeting in South Carolina, and educated they collected testimonies had printouts available for people and then had one person actually go and share their story. And she organised this meeting to educate the South Carolina community about this. And the South Carolina Community was like, hell no, we do not want this in our, in our town. And so through, you know, boots on the ground collective action, were calling their elected officials were calling the representatives emailing, writing, and eventually got to the point where the town decided to not open up freedom village. And from the success of that. That event, Jas decided to keep keep keep the momentum rolling. And that looked like forming the we warn them collective that is now a nonprofit that fights against institutional abuse through direct action. And so yeah, she asked me, we connected she's in the last episode, where, if you haven't, you can hear this kind of story that I briefly just described about the South Carolina, but super inspirational. And, yeah, so now we are a collective of people that are passionate about fighting against this issue and human rights issues in general, how these all intersect. And yeah, we're called we won them.

Guy Stephens  51:43  

And so after South Carolina, and you know, you know, I'm kind of wondering, you know, I was kind of thinking, as you were telling me that and of course, I knew a little bit of that story, but did they try to go anywhere else? You know, I was also too wondering, like, their reasons for, you know, the reasons a town turned it away. Were they the right reasons. So, you know, sometimes people don't want things in their backyard for the wrong reasons. But at the end of the day, didn't matter. It was good. They didn't want them there. But did they try to go elsewhere? Did they try to find somewhere else that would be receptive to that?

Margaret Mayer  52:22  

Not that we know of currently, both the brothers family lives in Florida. You know, Fletcher brothers still has his daily podcast. Which, you know, he does. Unfortunately, he's still raising funds. Which it's a little ironic, but he's running, running, raising funds under the slogan kids lives matter.

Guy Stephens  52:49  

Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. Literally

Margaret Mayer  52:54  

selling T shirts, little yard signs that say kids lives matter. From my research, his main audience is extremely conservative people in like the Bible Belt area, I think those are the people that are tuning in. And listening. I don't know how successful it is. But I do know that there are currently four open sexual abuse cases that are currently happening in New York. So they are having to respond to those cases right now. Yeah, so that's the most up to date thing. I know. But in terms of them, opening up another school, it doesn't look very promising. I think a lot of their resources were drained, they kind of from my understanding, they kind of hit their peak in the in the 90s and early 2000s, early 2000s, where they had close to 300 kids, well, the program, and then that last year, my friends, there was about 15 of them. Gotcha.

Guy Stephens  53:56  

And, of course, I mean, it's, it's, it's good to know that the facility is no longer a facility that did a lot of harm, or a lot of a lot of people that, that you know, and people that I've met as well. But of course, there are plenty of other facilities around the country that are doing similar things. Some of them are religious organizations, some of them are not many of them, the common denominator is kind of the idea of your, your child was broken, we're going to fix them through compliance and control and, you know, point in level systems and lots of behavioral manipulation, a lot of things that are really harmful. A lot of this place is leading to a lot of trauma, which of course you know, increases you know, what might happen to people when they get out whether it's, you know, becoming addicted to drugs or alcohol or, you know, other types of things that might be secondary to the trauma that people endure in a facility like this. So the impact lifelong impact can be can be really significant. I want to ask you for a second if you can, you mentioned your your partner was a therapist or a A counselor, okay. Yeah, he's a clinical therapist, clinical therapist, okay. And I'm gonna ask you to channel your your partner for a second, and you can just do the best you can. But what I was going to ask you is, is that, you know, of course, the one of the solutions here to this problem, and there are many, some of its legislative getting better laws and policies passed. And of course, there are organizations out there that are working to do that. I know, we warn them as supportive of changes as well. But one of the other changes that needs to happen is more upstream in terms of, you know, if we can prevent people from sending children to these kinds of facilities, they won't exist. So you know, kind of putting on your, your partner as a kind of, you know, therapist counselor kind of hat, what might you share, and based on what you've learned, I mean, what point you must share with a parent or family about what they might do, instead of sending a child to a place like this, that is claiming to fix their child that could in fact, be really harmful. And any thoughts on that of what, you know, what you would want them to know, I mean, I've actually had in the past, and I've probably connected them to the jazz or others, but we've had parents that have reached out and said, hey, you know, we were actually thinking about sending a child to this facility, and we read this article on your website, and now we're questioning that, what do we do? Any any thoughts? I mean, what were the parents that might be like, Oh, well, you know, there's these facilities and somebody recommended them. And look, they get to go hike in the woods. And, you know,

Margaret Mayer  56:38  

I would say the first thing is, you know, research, like, take the time to Google and not just the first page of Google, like, go to the fifth page and Google try and find those Reddit threads, you know, try and I think, if the parent really wants to send a kid, try and talk to someone that's been there, you know, but even before that, I would say, look around to your actual community, I think that is the the biggest solution is that we need to invest in our actual communities, this idea that we can send a kid away, that we can send away their problems, and then they can come back fixed is just not realistic. No, I think we have to break the stigma of mental health, about having kids that are struggling, we need to be able to let be vulnerable a little bit and share that with our neighbors, she connect with other parents who have gone through similar things with other kids. And start, I would say, just create an actual conversation. And you know, each community is different. But I would encourage parents to invest in local resources, you know, are there community centers? Are there places, you know, other people that have been through similar things? Yeah,

Guy Stephens  58:00  

I mean, even taking a look at your, your ideas around, you know, parenting, and even reflecting upon? You know, what are your expectations, I mean, sometimes we put unreasonable expectations on kids expectations that aren't aligned with what we know about, like, brain development, and, you know, how children grow and development, you know, you know, and a lot of I mean, I would say, and this is just my opinion here, but, you know, if your, your parenting approach is very compliance and control oriented, maybe that needs to change as well, you know, sometimes the, you know, the, the, you know, the children and youth that might be struggling are ones that are, you know, at home in situations that are really difficult. And I think sometimes even adjusting anything we can do to keep a family together and, you know, work in a supportive way. And, you know, understand that, you know, I mean, kids brains are not fully developed at all brains, and kids are going to make bad decisions, they're going to make some bad choices. And that's okay, our brain is wired in that way. In fact, you know, I mean, our cortex doesn't develop until we're, you know, 25 or 30 years old, completely. It's part of our biology, we're gonna we're gonna, we're gonna make some mistakes and do some things that we shouldn't do.

Margaret Mayer  59:18  

I mean, what you're saying about this, the brain stuff, I mean, maybe even learning about that, you know, or understanding what trauma informed is. And I think a lot of people you know, if they grew up, being beat, beat as a kid, you know, having, you know, some more extreme punishments, they may be dealing with their own trauma with that, and then just repeat that

Guy Stephens  59:41  

on their kid with their there's a lot of cycles of trauma that have to be broken. And we do that a lot. I mean, we do see people and you know, I mean, I have been this is something I've shared before, but, you know, in when I was young, when I was a kid, a couple of the initial schools I went to were religious schools, I was subjected to corporal punishment I was I was hit at school. I mean for minor things. And, you know, I mean, the fact that I can remember them, I'm 53 years old and can still remember that. I mean, they were traumatic. And, you know, I think that even if things happen to us, or were done to us, you know, we can break those cycles. And I happen to be a firm believer in that, understanding some of the, you know, the developmental piece of, of childhood and understanding brain development and understanding trauma can really help us to make sure that we're not perpetuating cycles of trauma, and then we're doing things to, to make the world a better place and safer for kids. But but it does, I mean, I think there's, there's a lot that we can do, you know, before you decide to send your child off somewhere to be fixed. And, you know, I just hate that whole ideology, right. There's a lot that can be done to work with and support and using community resources, you know, doing your research. I happen to be a big fan of Dr. Mona della hooks work. And she wrote a great book called Brain Body parenting, that kind of goes into some of the brain science and development around that. So certainly a lot that people can do, to hopefully, direct things in a better direction and avoid this kind of outcome. Yeah, yeah. So you've you have a series, how many episodes are there now?

Margaret Mayer  1:01:25  

There are six. And that's, that's gonna be it. I really took me almost three years to complete shout out to my amazing editor staff who helped me a lot and just so many friends that believed in this project, we did it on with no money, zero budget. So yeah, there's six episodes. That kind of tells the story, I hope to, you know, do another season. Who knows what that will look like right now. But, um, yeah, that's why I've been calling it more of an audio documentary. It's kind of just one thing. Yeah,

Guy Stephens  1:02:00  

that's, that's, that's great. So what is on you know, what's up next for you? What's What are you planning on focusing on? Or do you have other projects that you're beginning to, to work on? Yes.

Margaret Mayer  1:02:13  

So I'm actually just dropped a chat. But we're, I'm working with the we won them collective now. And we are trying to get Fiscal Sponsorship. So we are currently raising funds to get that fiscal sponsorship. And yeah, I think after we get that fiscal sponsorship, we can kind of level up in terms of our projects, have we worn them? Yeah.

Guy Stephens  1:02:42  

And I just as you're saying, this, I just brought up, there's, there's a link tree. And we've got, we can share link to that as well, that gives us some of the information about we warn them. And of course, one of them is GoFundMe for raising funds for Fiscal Sponsorship. So you know, if you want to support this work, and it's important work, I've happened to have the privilege of, of not only meeting jazz, but a number of the people that have been working, related through we warn them and, you know, fantastic group of people that are doing, you know, really important work to help bring about change. And of course, I hear you can also, as I recall, Yep, there we go. There's a link to the podcast. So people can go here to the link tree page. And we can put that again in the chat. But they can listen to the podcast there. So lots of great information. In fact, there's an article there that I believe it's Jazz's article written about her experience with a troubled teen industry. So anyway, well, we'll throw this in the chat, but definitely want to encourage people to support the work of we warn them. Because it is important, we do need to, you know, we do need to change things and upgrade, I see that Courtney just put that in the chat as well. So those links are there. So I want to get people that are watching live now. If you have any final thoughts or questions or comments, feel free to put those in the chat. And we'll get a couple of comments here hopefully are questions that we can address here in a second. But I want to ask you while we're waiting, you know, in your work to do this, you know, what's your hope? I mean, what's your hope out of you know this, because I can only imagine how many hours and probably I mean, this is not it's not easy. It's not not easy to hear the stories and, you know, to put this kind of thing together. But what's your hope and what's your hope that what might this this podcast series do? Any thoughts?

Margaret Mayer  1:04:59  

Yeah. I mean, I think what you just said is that it's not easy to listen, and to hear. And so my hope is that people will listen, you know, of course, listen to the podcast, but what I really mean is like, listen to people that have been through this themselves. And I hope that people that have been through this can find the courage to share their story, because it's, it's hard to share something, to share something that has touched and hurt you so deeply. So my hope is that, you know, I really believe that the backbone to a lot of things is community. And my hope is that people can go can grow stronger in their own communities, whether whether that be in person or in the the multiple kinds of online communities that exist. But because the troubled teen industry is still so niche, I think there there needs to be a push for a general understanding of what that looks like. Which is why I I say, Listen. And then on a more technical level, my hope is that there's legislation that comes about something that we warn them has been pushing for that you can also find in the link tree is a call to action to support sicko, which is the Stop Hey, your

Guy Stephens  1:06:19  

timing was perfect on that, because Leanne just asked one of them support Sikka, do you want to do want to tell us a little bit about what it is? Yeah, so

Margaret Mayer  1:06:28  

sick as a federal bill that's trying to be passed right now, that would essentially create a national database of all the troubled teen schools. So part of the problem right now is that there's no there's not a federal central location where you can find all these schools on silenced has an awesome program archive on their website, which was built by databases. But in terms of getting legislation passed, we need references, you know, that people can reference and say, Hey, this is real. So, Sikka would allow that to be created. And they would also give recommendations for best practices in these schools and increase oversight, and then also have a task force in place. That would also help oversight.

Guy Stephens  1:07:26  

You have to remind me if my memory is right here is cyka, stop Institute institutional Child Abuse Act. Is that what it is? Okay. Okay. And, of course, one of the things that I know from having connection with, you know, a number of the different groups that are working on this is that, you know, the bill actually has gotten some bipartisan support, which is fantastic. That's what, that's what we

Margaret Mayer  1:07:51  

need. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. A bipartisan issue, you know, and

Guy Stephens  1:07:56  

some of these things should be but for one reason or another, they're not. I mean, some of these are human issues. They're not, they're not democratic issues, or Republican issues, or whatever they may be, unfortunately, many issues turn into partisan issues, which really is troubling. But, you know, we also know that this process is not easy. And, you know, I'm sure that all of the the people that have worked hard to try to move forward with some legislation, at times, it's frustrating, because you might not get everything you want in a bill. There's there's probably a lot more and I know, there's previous versions of this drafted that that would have done more, but at the same time, the political process is a slow, deliberate, incremental process. And I hate that it's that, but it's just the reality of it. So, you know, I'm sure there are people that think, well, this bill isn't doing enough, but it is certainly something that's a huge step in the right direction, wouldn't you say? Oh,

Margaret Mayer  1:08:52  

yeah. 100%. And, you know, I've talked to some of the people that have been part of that process. And they have definitely said, this is the introductory bill. No, this is going to be one. I mean, this is a multibillion dollar industry. Like it's not a one fix, like the unfortunately, it's probably going to be years and years and years of different legislation, different bills, you know, being introduced. Yeah. But that's why I also encourage people to look into what troubled teen schools are in their own local area, because a lot of the time just like what jazz organized with the South Carolina is, if we can go in and hyper focus on one school, oftentimes, we can get that shut down quicker than a national legislative place. So I would encourage you

Guy Stephens  1:09:39  

guys, I'm trying to try to think of the effort that was happening in Missouri.

Margaret Mayer  1:09:46  

That topic that was Yeah,

Guy Stephens  1:09:47  

yeah, I mean, and Rob, Rob was a robber. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yep. I haven't talked to Robert in a while, but I talked to him quite a bit as that was happening. And you know, I mean, the the difference that a single individual can make. And I've had the fortune of meeting, a lot of single individuals that are like, you know, LeAnn who was coming in earlier, the difference that a single individual can make when they really, you know, one share their story and to come out. And I love that you mentioned that, like, there is so much power in our stories. And you know, one of the things that I've heard, and I can't tell you who coined it, but I've heard it come out of the troubled teen industry was kind of like turning pain into power, right? These experiences that you have, we sometimes have more power and influence to change things, and we realize it's not easy, but at the same time, you know, people really can make a difference. And, you know, and you know, so it is important, it's not easy, though, either, you know, I think about the, you know, the communities and, you know, having been involved in a number of the different groups that are that are out there that are doing, I think, amazing work. You know, when you come together with people that share that common trauma and experience, it's tough, because, you know, we all want change, we all want to make things better. But we also have suffered some, you know, the people that are that are part of these communities have often suffered some pretty significant, you know, stress and trauma related to this,

Margaret Mayer  1:11:18  

right, which is why I think that ally ship is super important in this movement, as well, you know, a lot of the people, the survivors, telling their story is hard enough. So that's why I encourage people that, you know, don't know about this, or realize that it's a problem to to get involved, you know, you don't I have not been through this, thank God, you know, but I'm using as much as I can to talk about this to raise awareness to connect with community over this issue. And so I would just encourage, you know, people, even if this hasn't affected you directly, most likely, you know, somebody that it has, or the possibility of it affecting you or your cousin or your niece is, is, is pretty high. So I think realizing, as well, that this is we're all connected in this? Absolutely,

Guy Stephens  1:12:08  

absolutely. Well, you know, I mean, it's interesting, because, you know, the work that we do here in the Alliance, we've been, I think, Gosh, could probably go back four years or more. I mean, we've been around for about five years, but have been connected in some way with people that have been working related to the troubled teen industry. And while while initially it wasn't kind of directly, you know, the issue that we were we're looking at very much, it's a very aligned, you know, it's a very aligned, issue. And we've tried to do what we can do, you know, help support the groups that are out there that are doing this work, because I think it's so important. And, of course, you know, restraint and seclusion happen in a lot of these these facilities. And, you know, but But beyond that, it's that higher level issue, which is all the things that are very often done to kids and youth in the name of behavior, and the fact that many of the approaches that are being taken, whether it's at a school of residential facility, and acute psychiatric facility at home, many of the approaches being taken around behavior are not aligned with what we know about brain science, they are not aligned with what we know about trauma. And if we can do better, and we can, I mean, absolutely, we can, you know, we're gonna make the world a better place. So, you know, all of this work, I think, is connected. And in fact, one of the things that that, you know, I've seen, and I'm kind of curious of your, your take on this, but from what I've seen, you know, when we talk about, for instance, restraint and seclusion happening in schools, we can, we can also align that to the people that are being restrained at school and more often, individuals with disabilities, you know, black and brown children, kids with a trauma history. Very often, we see a lot of the same children that are ending up in troubled teen facilities as well. And it may be you know, that I mean, I've met a lot of neurodivergent individuals that have ended up in the troubled teen industry, you know, people with ADHD or ADD or, you know, I mean, do you find that as well, that there tends to be more neurodiversity more neuro divergence, I guess, is a better way to put it in terms of people in the treble team industry.

Margaret Mayer  1:14:24  

Yeah. 100%. I mean, like I said, In the beginning, they're often going into financially disadvantaged areas that are already over policed. So the number of kids that are being put in a position of juvie or foster care are higher. So then those kids are being sent into these programs. But then also, I mean, there's, for you know, kids that are neurodivergent, or really any creative kid, you know, they don't fit into this typical tools of having to sit at a desk and you know, write for 10 hours a day or whatever and in places like freedom village If that's what you're asked to do, it's obedient. So

Guy Stephens  1:15:02  

be obedience and compliance. And that is the wrong goal. If compliance is your goal, you have the wrong goal. You know, that should not be the goal, raising compliant children should not be our goal. Yes, you know, kids need to be able to get along with others, yes, they need to be able to work with other people. But you know, compliance for the sake of compliance leads to I think, a lot of issues downstream. And we need the kids that ask questions and, and come up with creative solutions. And, you know, so we're often looking at this in very much the wrong way.

Margaret Mayer  1:15:33  

And I think with the neurodiversity part, I mean, a lot of times, I don't think parents understand maybe what autism looks like, on its full spectrum. I mean, there's definitely an you have to be educated about what that looks like. And so I think sometimes, kids behavior that is maybe typical for an autistic kid can be mistaken for troubling behavior, or if they're not given the proper solutions, then their likelihood of being sent away is higher, because the parents or the community don't understand what's best for the kid. And then they get sent away to these programs that also don't understand. So then you just leave a kid that has complex PTSD?

Guy Stephens  1:16:17  

Well, listen, we are just about a time here. So I want to give you an opportunity, if you have any, any final thoughts of anything you want to leave us with? Of course, we're gonna encourage people to check out the podcast series, and we provided the links here. And, you know, we'll be looking forward to whatever you you do next, if there's another season or other work that you do. But any final thoughts, anything you want to leave people with today? Yeah, I mean,

Margaret Mayer  1:16:42  

definitely, check out the podcast follow, we warn them on different platforms. But I would also just say, create conversation, ask questions, be curious, be curious about what's going on in your own community, be curious about people's other people's experiences, be curious to yourself on maybe why you don't want to learn about this, you know, I think a lot of change, at least for me, has come with facing, you know, my own history, my own past and being like, fighting, looking through that. So being curious about yourself.

Guy Stephens  1:17:22  

You know, I think be curious. I mean, it should be our mantra, I mean, really, I mean, from working individually, with people to systems to whatever it may be. Curiosity goes a long way. And, you know, assumptions sometimes go the wrong way. Curiosity, you know, never does being curious, and, you know, having discussions and asking questions, you're always gonna get value out of that. So I love I love that you've, you know, focused on that. This has been great. And I really appreciate Leon just said, great interview. Thank you. I really appreciate you coming on. And joining me today for this conversation. You know, hopefully people will be curious will will go out there and learn more. And And certainly, I mean, if you know, you happen to be somebody that's a parent, and you're, you've been thinking about, you know, sending their child to a facility. Be curious, do your homework. I mean, you know, I think about when you said about good at page five of Google, and I think you know, even at your Reviver after the name of the school, and if that brings you back results, you might want to be concerned, right. You know, there's things that we can do. And, you know, anyway, so this has been great. I would encourage people reach out to we warn them for more. And, you know, thank you again for for joining us today. Yeah,

Margaret Mayer  1:18:39  

thank you so much. And thank you for all the work and awareness that you bring around these issues as well. Absolutely, absolutely.

Guy Stephens  1:18:46  

Well, I will I will we will let the audience go here. You can hang around for a second. Thank you, everybody, for joining us today. And we will see you again. Actually, next Thursday. We have another live event. I will not be here. But we the live event will go on. So we will see you in about a week. All right. And take care everybody

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