Solutions to end the school-to-prison pipeline an interview with Leonard Webb

Please join us for “Solutions to end the school-to-prison pipeline an interview with Leonard Webb”

Mr. Webb retired from law enforcement to focus on improving the education outcomes of students and improving relationships between administration, teachers, parents, and students. He is focused on directly addressing the school-to-prison pipeline by providing equity-based solutions, bringing accountability to school leaders while increasing attendance and decreasing suspension/ expulsions. His work with schools and the community led to him being appointed by Governor Hogan (Md.) to the Juvenile Justice School Board for the State of Maryland.

He offers a unique perspective on the School-to-Prison Pipeline as well as solutions. He spent 19 years as an adjunct professor at Potomac State College of West Virginia University and 27 years with the Federal Bureau Prisons counseling men. He has seen both ends of the pipeline. He has seen young people enter his office in prison and people with similar demographics enter his college classroom. Leonard supports criminal justice and educational reform, but he has learned that investing in young people’s “off hours”, building relationships, and supporting SEL (social-emotional learning) are pragmatic and consequential ways to end the school-to-prison pipeline.

Transcript

Guy Stephens: 0:14

Well, hello, and welcome back to the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint Live series. My name is Guy Stevens, I am the host and also the executive director of the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint. I am excited to have you here today. We've got a great, great show on tap for you today. And we are excited to continue doing this work that we're doing to try to bring about some change here. Those of you that are not familiar with the Alliance, the organization was started about four years ago, really with a focus on how do we reduce and eliminate restraint, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, corporal punishment, you know, we do a lot of work really aimed at how to reduce and ultimately eliminate the school to prison pipeline, and to try to change policies, laws of minds, hearts, and all that we can, so that we can do better for our kids, our teachers, our staff, and so many others. And of course, the mission always grows, you know, we don't want to see these things happening to people anywhere that they might be in terms of things like restraint, seclusion. So we've got a big mission, and a big vision, and are always excited to have you join us for another live event. So today, I'm really excited to have a fellow Maryland resident with me, I don't have as many Maryland residents with me, and this, this is really exciting because I actually, I'll tell you in a minute, but I actually met our next guest from a common connection in Kansas, which just shows you how the world works these days, right? You meet somebody right down the street, and in fact, you meet them through somebody in another state. But I'm really excited here today to have Leonard Webb joining us for a really special interview. Leonard is a consultant, somebody who's working to end the school-to-prison pipeline, and who's doing some amazing work. And I'll tell you more about Leonard in just a moment, I do want to let you know that, as always, all of these live events are recorded. And you will be able to watch live on Facebook, YouTube, and LinkedIn. And after the fact, you can go back to Facebook link book, LinkedIn, talk here, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube and watch them there. We also make all of our programs available as an audio podcasts. So if you prefer to listen on the go, you want to listen in your car, you can find it on Spotify, you can find it on Google, you can find it on iTunes, anywhere that you might listen to or download podcasts, you can find our AASR live a podcast. So this will be available to you in lots of different ways after the fact. So with all that, let's get to the really fun stuff. And before I introduce our guests, if you happen to be watching live now, you know the drill, I love to see who you are, and I love to see where you're from. So if you would be so kind in the chat, let us know who you are, let us know where you're from. And we'll share that information here with Leonard as well because it's always a lot of fun to see who's joining us. So with that, I'm going to bring Leonard up on the screen, and kind of read through your introduction here. Leonard, I'm really excited to have you here today. And let me tell folks a little bit about who you are, what your background is, and what you're doing before we get into our conversation. And, of course, you are retired from law enforcement. And you retired to focus on improving the education and educational outcomes for students and improving relationships between administration teachers, parents, and students. And, of course, like you, we think relationships are really critical here. You've been focused on directly addressing the school-to-prison pipeline, by providing equity-based solutions and bringing accountability to school leaders, while increasing attendance, decreasing suspensions and expulsions. And it's always amazing to see that kind of work because, you know, we find that there are causal relationships, the more kids are being suspended, expelled, subjected to, you know, all sorts of punitive discipline, the more likely Of course, they might be to enter that school to prison pipeline. And your work with schools and in the community led you to be appointed by our governor here at the time in Maryland, Governor Hogan, to the juvenile justice board, for the state of Maryland, which is fantastic. And, of course, you also offer this really unique perspective on the school-to-prison pipeline, as well as solutions. And that's really important because in this kind of work that we do, you know, often we might find ourselves talking about the things we don't want to happen, the things we don't want people to do, but solutions are so critical. You spent 19 years as an adjunct professor at Potomac State College of West Virginia University, and 27 years with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, counseling men. You've seen both sides of the pipeline, and you have seen Young people enter your office in prison and people with similar demographics enter your college classroom. You know, Leonard supports criminal justice and education reform. But he's also learned that investing in young people's off hours builds relationships and supports social-emotional learning, and our pragmatic and consequential ways to help in the school-to-prison pipeline. And Leonard, first of all, we are super excited to have you here today. Very aligned with your work and your mission to put an end to the school-to-prison pipeline. So let me just start off by saying, Welcome. Happy to have you here today. And happy to get in this discussion with you today.

Leonard Webb: 5:43

Thanks very much for having me. It's great to have a fellow Marylander

Guy Stephens: 5:49

Absolutely. And, you know, soon, well, actually, probably as soon as now, you know, the crabs are becoming coming back to into season, you know, the blue crabs and, you know, some of what Maryland is known for, as, you know, come in as we get into the summertime. And, of course, the Chesapeake Bay, which is, you know, iconic in the state, of course, you're over in the mountain areas. And a lot of people don't really realize that while Maryland is a fairly small state, sometimes people call it Little America because you can go from kind of the coastal region to the mountains, all as you drive across Maryland. So it's a beautiful area. I think I'm sharing with you that my son is looking to go to school and go to college, up in the part of Maryland, where you are now. And it's a really beautiful space, I will let you know that we've got people, as I mentioned, you joining us from, you know, all over as we often see, we've got somebody here from Indiana, and Ali says I'm in Granger, Indiana. I'm a school counselor in a high school. I'm going to start my dissertation on trauma-responsive practices in school. Fantastic. We have Beth here from San Jose, a parent of two autistic sons, a teacher of kids with autism, ADHD, and dyslexia, advocate with Lives in the Balance. Which is another fantastic organization, also focused on the school-to-prison pipeline. We have let's say my son is currently in Pendleton juvenile correctional center. He has an intellectual disability and a laundry list of other diagnoses, working with people at the state level to pass bills in regard to parents' and children's rights in the juvenile justice system. I'm sure we'll find that Leonard, you have some thoughts and experiences there, that'll probably be really relevant. And I've got Tracy here joining us from Idaho. My son is 12. And as in the school-to-prison pipeline. So we have a pretty broad audience that we have here at the Alliance. And just to give you an idea, we have a lot of parents whose children are often on the wrong side of a lot of disciplinary practices, restraint, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, and corporal punishment. We also have a tremendous number of self-advocates, we have a large population of Autistic Self Advocates. We also have a lot of educators, teachers, administrators, paraprofessionals, as well as, you know, kind of related service providers, occupational therapists, speech-language pathologists, psychologists, really a broad community and why I think that's important, and I think you'll probably agree with me is that it's about how do we come together towards change? You mentioned in your bio, kind of this idea of solutions, and you mentioned your background in law enforcement. And, you know, you've certainly seen a lot of sides of what we're going to be talking about today, which is really talking about that school-to-prison pipeline, and what we can do to move in a better direction. So you've got a lot of perspective here. But let me start off by let's go back to the beginning for a second. You know, what, what brought you to law enforcement? And then how did that lead to a transition into education? So if I can just ask you to tell us a little bit of your story. You know, what led you initially down the road that you took, and at some point, it seems like you kind of took a pivot, and probably very much supporting the same people but in maybe a more upstream capacity, rather than working people that might have been kind of later down that road. So tell us a little bit about you and your story and, and how you ended up where you are.

Leonard Webb: 9:40

I grew up in New York, and I saw a lot of crime and drugs and a lot of people that I cared about fall victim to that. And my first thought was, I want to go to college, and I want to do something that can change lives. And in New York, gives there was a lot of police brutality and things like that going on. And I said, Well if I get into law enforcement, I can change that I can be the person that sparks that change. And my first job out of college was as a police officer. And I lasted less than six months, I quickly realized that I wasn't going to change anything from that point, which was sad for me because I thought I could, but there was a culture in law enforcement that I learned early on, that just doesn't support what I wanted to do. In the way, I wanted to do it. I got into a prison system. And I was fortunate to get into counseling. And I felt like I was making a difference. I felt like, at least for the men that I was around, that made a difference in their lives. And just the conversations that we had. You know, when you're in prison, there's a staff and, and people that are incarcerated dichotomy that exists where you can't tell them anything, and they don't tell you anything. And my whole experience went contradictory to that I walked through visiting rooms, where guys would say, Here's my wife, here's my mother, you know, here's my family, I want to introduce you to Mr. Webb, and I had families calling me and saying, thank you, and just wanting to talk. And I knew, at that point, that relationships mattered. I didn't know how much, but I knew relationships had a lot to do with changing people. And as I went on, in the prison system, I got diversified into programs, I started a program for young offenders. And it led to a program for drug offenders that were about to release. And through government work, I was getting awards, I was getting raises, I was getting real comfortable. And until I started an adjunct position at a local college. And when I started there, I noticed that some of these students look just like the guys that come to my office in prison. And I just thought about why is this happening? And then I started to dig deeper, I started asking questions. And you know why? You know what happened, and a lot of it went back to schools getting removed, getting expelled, dropping out, things like that. But what I also came to find out was, the guys that would come into my office in the prison, I had to make sure that I offered them, if they had an educational difficulty, that I offered them every six months, an evidence-based program to deal with their educational difficulty, whether they had two years or life sentence every six months, I had to do that. So when I started working at the college, there were some kids that were having difficulties. They told me about these interventions that they got. And, you know, while they were in schooling, not so I went back to the guys that were incarcerated, and I said, Did the school provide anything for you? And they were like, no, no, we got a whole bunch of Nos. And I was like, Why does a person have to come to prison to get offered evidence-based programming for the difficulties? Why isn't it offered, when they find out when they are in kindergarten, or first grade, or second grade, or whenever that happens? So I kind of had a little pushback on how things are being done. And there was a quote by Desmond Tutu, and it says, "sometimes you have to stop pulling people out of the river, and find out why they're falling in."

Guy Stephens: 14:11

one of my favorites in the world, it makes so much sense.

Leonard Webb: 14:15

It just describes my journey. In law enforcement, you can retire if you're 50, after 20 years, if you're under 50, after 25, or in federal law enforcement, there's an automatic out at 57 in here was at 47 years old, spent 26 years in this system, building up the 401, k's and health insurance and all that kind of stuff. And I said, I guess God called me, and I feel like God called me before I just wasn't listening. Or I changed my name, and he was calling my number

Guy Stephens: 14:54

wrong number.

Leonard Webb: 14:57

I don't know what happened, but at that point, I walked into the warden's office, and I said, it's time for me to do something different. Because I didn't feel the support from the prison system to do what I really thought would be helpful.

Guy Stephens: 15:11

Well, you know, as I recall from chatting with you before you came, I think, had this way about working with people that were very based on relationships and getting to know people. And, as you said, some of the things you were doing, were commonly probably pushing up against the system, I'm sure you had some people telling him, well, you can't do that you shouldn't do this. Yet, you recognize intuitively that that connection was really important. Did you get a lot of pushback as you were trying to bring in things to benefit people to tell us a little bit about that?

Leonard Webb: 15:53

It started with just simple things like a handshake. And my thing was, if they're going to release from prison, a handshake is something that they need to understand is important when you're going to look for a job. And so I initiated handshakes when they saw me, no matter where it was, and that got a lot of pushback from staff. Why are you shaking hands with inmates? And the first thing for me is, they are not inmates, that's the name you call them. That's the name you gave them. But they're human beings. And I'm going to treat them like human beings, because they're going to be in the streets one day, and I want them to be successful. So we do handshakes, and I would rate their handshake, not firm enough or your hands are sweating. And they enjoyed that. But not just for the fact that it was something that they can use when they get out. They felt that they belong. Like somebody can see them, somebody can hear them.

Guy Stephens: 17:00

And, yeah, I was thinking those words, as you said it, it's, what we all want, we want that connection, we want to be seen, we want to be heard, and we want to be valued. We don't want to be inmate number x, you know? When did you, I mean, again, you mentioned the quote there, which is one that I love, but when did you make the connection, kind of upstream, in terms of that school-to-prison pipeline?

Leonard Webb: 17:27

I think it was. There were guys, in particular, that were just brilliant, that I met doing the prison work. And they were just, and they all had their own gifts. And one day, it was like, why are you wasting your gifts here? And I realized that there may have been choices for them to get there. But there's a part that was played in their lives, there was trauma that was in their lives, that was unresolved. And I wanted to share, I wanted them to share their gifts with the world. And the best way to do that is, as a child, for kids in school to recognize the gifts that they have. And that kind of was okay, I have to stop pulling out. Which depresses me at first, because I felt like it was really the only thing I was ever really good at. Were I was just above everybody else? Where I was unique, I had a special way of doing things.

Guy Stephens: 18:45

But you're also swimming upstream with probably sometimes people that didn't see the same value in terms of what you were doing and the impact of it. But said, Hey, this pushes against the system, that's not good. And that's a tough place to be. I mean, it's a tough place to be when you're in a culture system that, needs to change, needs to improve and you're trying, and you're making a difference. You're making a difference for the individuals that you're working with. But that was needed.

Leonard Webb: 19:16

That needed to be improved, in the prison system itself. And like I said, it started with simple stuff like a handshake, and then I was fist-bumping. And that was just a common thing to do. And, I got a lot of pushback, and I got funding for a library. So I did get some support. And you think about what's happening now, nobody told me what books I could bring in. It was just books I thought they'd be interested in, so there was no ban on my books that came in.

Guy Stephens: 19:54

What's the old saying, that sometimes its better to beg forgiveness than ask permission? Oh, that might have been the better approach there, for sure. Well, tell us about some of the programs that you are in, some of the things that you did, in the prison system, and then we will get into kind of talking about what happened after that. But what were some of the things that you did, other than kind of treating people differently, it seems to me that you've brought some programs in to help individuals, and to make a difference, hopefully, when and if they were able to get out. Can you tell us a little bit about the work that you were doing there,

Leonard Webb: 20:32

the first program was for 18 to 30-year-olds because that demographic had gotten into the most trouble in prison. And what would happen is, they received their sentence, and it had to be over a five years sentence. And what would happen, they get to the end of the sentence, and they're thinking, they're going to get out by their daughter's graduation. But since their transition into prison was difficult, they didn't realize they lost good time and things like that. And what I first wanted to do was highlight your treatment starts, the minute you come into prison, your release plan starts, the minute you come into prison. A lot of times when men are incarcerated, it's, I'm gonna do time, but actually, they're letting time do them. And so it was making goals. And, keeping that out date in the front of their mind, and not just something when they come and say, Oh, you're getting released on this date? Well, I thought it was getting released on this day. Now you have to tell your family, you're not gonna be home for Christmas. And it was just some of that prevention. And I always said, when I was in the prison system, if you can predict it, you can prevent it. So there were things that I saw in the data that I could predict, that automatically wanted to prevent them, and the first part was the youngest getting the most trouble. So let's focus on the youngest and keep them out of trouble. which benefits the prison system because you don't have as many incidents and things like that. And the next step was to have a plan. This is, I don't have a GED or don't have this, just to set up a plan to use their time wisely. Because a lot of times, they get caught up in prison politics, focusing too much on their bodies. And not in the law library or in the library, just reading or keeping up with current trends. They keep up with current music, but not with current trends that are going on in the world. And the most important one is dealing with the trauma that may have happened in their family, happened and it expanded into school systems, and learning how to deal with that, a lot of what's now called social-emotional learning, is what I was doing, it's figuring out that process to better deal with the emotions.

Guy Stephens: 23:12

You know, I think there are probably a number of people that are gonna watch this either now or later. And I can tell you, there's a lot of concern among members of our community, about their own children, and the potential of their own children kind of going down the school-to-prison pipeline, of course, one of the things that we see, I was looking at some data the other day, that indicated that people in federal and state prisons that the rate of disability was astronomically high, it was something like 60%. How does that kind of go with your experience? Did you find that a lot of people that you were working with, may have had disabilities? And you know, we're talking about such a broad range. I mean, we're talking about ADHD, we're talking about autism, we're talking about dyslexia and dysgraphia. And, of course, we know that kids that are not having their needs understood and recognized in school, are at a far greater risk. So just talk to me a little bit about that, if you can tell a little bit about your experience and working with the folks that you were working with.

Leonard Webb: 24:24

One of the things that kind of got me in trouble was even if they had a high school diploma, I'd refer them anyway to get testing because you can have a high school diploma and still have those types of difficulties. So

Guy Stephens: 24:42

that sounds like good trouble to be.

Leonard Webb: 24:44

Good trouble. That's a good way to put it, but I referred everybody. It's something that's unseen. I didn't want to be part of pushing people through You know, give them a C. so they're done. And that got pushed back by some of the guys too. Hey, I got a high school diploma, why are you doing this? I'm just being cautious. You know, I can prevent it, I can predict it.

Guy Stephens: 25:13

I love that. If you can predict it, you can prevent it. I love that idea.

Leonard Webb: 25:19

Yeah. And I think, like looking at the chat, and I see people that are saying their loved one is in the school-to-prison pipeline or in Juvenile Services. And I believe there's a narrative of how we got here. And the narrative of preschoolers getting kicked out of school, five-year-olds getting handcuffs, put in padded rooms, and Corporal punishment and all that stuff. It's the same narrative back in the 90s, for mass incarceration, they just changed the names of what's been happening. Three strikes is zero tolerance. And you know, tough on crime, it's just more police in schools. And we've treated drug dependency the same way we treated it as a crime issue, rather than a health issue. Right. And we're doing the same thing, we're going along the same narratives. With our school system, we're treating child behavior as a crime. And what's driving this is fear and anger. And we can't support our children if the driving forces is fear and anger, it's just not possible. And all our stakeholders have to work together, the parents, the administrators, the teachers, and that's what I was trying to do in the prison system. The educational system has the same obstacles, there are just, unfortunately, people in the profession that have a low opinion of the people that are most affected by the school-to-prison pipeline. Children with disabilities and black and brown children, minorities, and children of poverty. There are so many in the profession that just have a negative opinion. And don't value people that are affected by it.

Guy Stephens: 27:21

Yeah. And, I always say, as you said, it's kids with disabilities, black and brown children, or kids with a trauma history. If we want to go back to even data of looking at data related to adverse childhood experiences, and the correlation between childhood trauma, and kids that are having difficulty, and not getting the help they need. And, there are some really troubling things that happen. Even when you begin to look at it, you can go upstream even further and say, the racial discrepancy in diagnoses, that two kids that present in a very similar way, a black child might get an emotional disturbance label and a white child might be diagnosed with autism. And, we see these things that are shaping the perceptions really happening very far upstream. But, again, these are children that need our help, not our consequences. And, many of the kids, I think, that we see that are being restrained, secluded, suspended, expelled, and subjected to corporal punishment, are getting pushed down that school-to-prison pipeline. You know, these are the most vulnerable kids that most need our help and support. And, it's really upsetting to see the response, which is, let's do more of what's not working, and we know is not working, let's do more. And, these last couple of years, of course, have been really challenging, right, we have the pandemic, and we had global trauma that affected people. I think that many of us could look in the future, prior to kids going back to school after COVID, and say that is gonna be tough, it's gonna be tough when kids are back in school. They've missed out on critical time, they've missed out on critical opportunities, and things like social-emotional learning as well. They missed out on connection, they may be carrying trauma in they may have lost loved ones, we could have predicted that we would see an increase in some challenges, and we might see an increase in some of the behaviors that are really related to stress and trauma. And we have, and yet, if you look around the country, there are places that are moving in the right direction, but there's a lot of places that are moving back in the wrong direction. We had a district at the beginning of last year that said, we want to bring back corporal punishment. It's like, really, the things that we know just don't work. So let's move forward a little bit. You're in your career in law enforcement in the prison system, you begin to think, Hey, I'm going to tap on the shoulder here, I got something else here that I'm going to do. It's not over for me yet, you begin doing some teaching at the college. So let's talk about, let's talk about after the tap on the shoulder, what happened and what you started doing next.

Leonard Webb: 30:25

My next thing, I wanted to see how schools function, so I started to substitute teaching, to get inside, kind of get an inside view of what was happening, rather than just going off of my assumptions. And there were a couple of things that I found that were disturbing to me. And there were some things that, made me feel good. But being an educator of color, I really didn't feel like I was respected. And everything that I was pushed to do had to do with discipline, I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that I was a man, and also that I was a man of color. And amazingly, the first long-term sub-opportunity that was offered was an alternative school, which functions just like a prison. And when I went there, it was like, I never left prison, you had the same controls movements, you had the same police walking around telling you take your hat off, pull your pants up, it was the same atmosphere that had just left. And I started the relationship building, which, again, wrangled people the wrong way. And I said, there's no difference between this and the prison system. It just isn't, which was really sad, right? And having these kids placed in here only to experience a type of prison, which is even worse when they go into juvenile facilities. And I just said, the justice system can't solve your problem. I spent 27 years in the justice system, the justice system can't solve your problem in the classroom, stop sending these children into the justice system. And this alternative school was just a form of the justice system. The Juvenile Justice System is just like the minor leagues, and when you start arresting and handcuffing children, that's not the solution.

Guy Stephens: 32:45

Right. Yeah, certainly, prisons should probably be less like prisons, but the thought that you're creating schools that operate in the same way. And then wondering about the school-to-prison pipeline. And, it begins with things that are being done to kids very often in the name of discipline, very often kids that are being misunderstood. Very often, kids that have trauma, kids that have disabilities, kids that have already had a tough go. And, we hear things that just blow my mind. And, it's interesting, because, again, I look at a kid that's being restrained, secluded, suspended, expelled, subjected to corporal punishment, what I see is a kid who we're not meeting that kid's needs, maybe we don't know what it is yet, but we're not understanding that child's needs and how to support them appropriately. And, as you said, many of these kids are very young. You know, I was reading something the other day about a kindergarten student. And, basically, as you read the story, the story was this violent kindergarten student, of course, I have an objection to the word violent being used there. But that assumes intent, and what I think you're seeing is a kid that's having a difficult time. But you know, what happens is, you know, this child is having a hard time, and the school is not meeting their needs. And then suddenly, other parents are outraged and concerned, which I understand. But at the same time, it's like, let's get the mob with the torches and get that child out of our classroom. Where do you want that child to go? I mean, this idea of wanting to exclude kids. Well, I don't want this kid in my classroom anymore. I get it, I get there are kids that are perhaps a challenge and that need more help and support, but we can't just, as a society, discard people, like, they're just not worth the effort. And, I think, ultimately, that's part of what happens. I mean when kids as young as five years old, are being viewed in that way. Don't you think it's so harmful?

Leonard Webb: 35:05

A lot of times, I ask educators, what about your trauma? And how is this affecting your relationships with the students, because I think educators, a lot of educators, don't understand their own trauma, and how kids may trigger that. So one of the things that I tell a lot of educators is trying to understand your trauma, because what I see sometimes is there's a meme that goes around, and it has a person on there, that's like this. And it says your reaction when you find out that the child in your classroom has a younger sibling. And again, I go back, if you can predict it, you can prevent it. So if they have a younger sibling, rather than be disappointed or have a negative reaction to that younger sibling, understand that you've already got some data from the older sibling, you already know some of the things that the child is going through whether it's food insecurity, a parent that's incarcerated, or have drug use. You know if the previous sibling has been coming late. Well, if they're in elementary school, and they're coming late, that's not their fault. They don't drive. So there are certain things that we're not adjusting to. And part of, and I'm not making a blanket of all educators, but we're just learning the effects of trauma right now. It's something that's new to us. This wasn't a discussion when I was in school. And I don't remember it being in discussion when my kids were in school, and I have a 2021 graduate. You know, I just started hearing about it by the time he was in high school. And there are 35 million children in the country that are affected by trauma. And that's probably a low number. But we're quick to go back to normal. Like in Maryland, you probably know, we're back to standardized testing, test schedules. What happened? COVID was a time, that could have been a time of Renaissance for education. And we dropped the ball already. We're still in kind of the pandemic, and we've already dropped the ball.

Guy Stephens: 37:42

Yeah, I would agree with you. I think, although, what happened was was, I think, really difficult, there was somewhat of an opportunity there to think about things in a different way. And I think the emphasis on academic catch-up over, let's support humans for a while, and let's really focus on connection and helping people feel safe again. You mentioned the trauma piece, and, of course, we've got the knowledge of trauma, now we've got the knowledge of neuroscience that can really help us understand why human behavior is what it is, and to look at things differently. And then that's part of the solution to me is how do we get this in more schools? But let me pause for a second, I just want to hit a couple of comments here. And if you are watching and you have a comment or a question or something you want to share, please feel free to put that in the chat. But before we get to those, Leonard, I just want to ask you to tell me about the names on the board behind you. Whose names are on the board behind you, and who are they?

Leonard Webb: 38:44

They are students in the next-generation Scholar Program here in Allegheny County. And they just got a little shout-out here.

Guy Stephens: 38:54

Absolutely. And I can't read them all, but I can see some of them there. Want to read a couple of names? I see Katie

Leonard Webb: 39:01

Katie, Kailyn, Allison, Mya, Victoria, and Kyla.

Guy Stephens: 39:06

All right, fantastic. Yeah, and a shout-out to your students. I couldn't let that go. We had to give them a shout-out. Now you have to tell them they have to watch it. I will probably just clip it. There you go. Let me just get to a couple of comments here. Jamie, a friend, and colleague in the UK. Just a kind of shared experience here. I have lived experience as a sibling of a person with intellectual disabilities and autism. Who, without trial or hearing, was sentenced to 15 years in secure facilities. I broke him out to a place of safety as well he was being abused. I am now a well-being consultant leading organizations and staff teams via co-production to reduce and eliminate restrictive practices. Jamie, appreciate you sharing your story. Yeah, I mean, it can be really tough. I think the frequency of disability and individuals that are moving in that school-to-prison thing is absolutely real. All right, let's see what else we have here. Trisha said, narrative preschoolers getting kicked out five-year-old's suspended, padded rooms. Yes, the same narrative is driven by fear and anger, amen. Chantelle, who is actually our lead volunteer in Canada, said that her best friend's autistic 10-year-old son was put into prone restraints and handcuffs by police. And his principal just a few weeks ago in New Brunswick, Canada, because he was in a fight or flight mode, or flight mode after being traumatized by various adults putting him in restraints since he was three years old. This needs to stop.

Leonard Webb: 40:53

You know, that really hits home after being in law enforcement for so long and training law enforcement officers. Law enforcement personnel, aren't trained to do the work for children, they're trained to do law enforcement. They're not trained educators. So from a law enforcement perspective, being disruptive in class is a crime. And the interaction is like you've committed a crime. There's a questioning involved, it's what's wrong with you, rather than what's happened to you. And that's how law enforcement treats things. And that's one of the biggest problems of bringing police into schools because they're usually not trained, typically. And they bring the law enforcement culture into the school, which does not support child brain development, which does not support social-emotional learning. And until we start getting people that are trained in those things into the schools, rather than spending the money on law enforcement, our country will never, ever have an unwavering commitment to our students. Our country has never had an unwavering commitment to our student's success.

Guy Stephens: 42:21

Do you think, I mean, one of the things that we see is that there are approaches in law enforcement, that are very similar to approaches we see in education? And whether which is influenced by which we can leave open for discussion, but, there's often a very compliance-based approach and law enforcement, there's often a very compliance-based approach with education. And I can tell you that many individuals and families, whether they are parents who are even educators with their own kids, or whoever it may be, when I begin to ask them about their children and what their goals are for their kids. Never Yet have I had a parents say, my goal is to raise a compliant child. Yes, we want children that can fit in society and in structured settings and all of that. That's right there. But at the same time, compliance shouldn't really be the goal. But do you think that I mean, that's part of the problem is just that we're so focused on compliance?

Leonard Webb: 43:31

Absolutely. It's still sit-and-get from the 1920s. Right. And this is not the world our children are living in. I have a grandson that I don't know what kind of world he's gonna walk into. But sit-and-get is over. I mean, we remember, we're close in age, remember, when a teacher would say, you're not gonna always have a calculator on you, right? These kids do.

Guy Stephens: 44:02

Well, yeah. And I remember the many times that my fellow Gen Xers ask questions like, What am I going to need this in real life? And I can tell you, there are a lot of things I haven't needed in real life. Alright, I want to get to a couple more comments here. Ali said, relationships are so important, agreed. Angie, who's another Marylander. Frederick, as I recall, what kind of reform can be done about this? Let's look at this for what it is really about money and discrimination. I'm writing letters daily to political figures. So I want to get into that in a minute with you in more detail, but I mean, what's your short answer about what people that are watching this today can do to help bring about change? We knew that we would get a visitor.

Leonard Webb: 44:56

He's kind of shy, so he didn't want to come in. Sorry. I think I saw somebody say, I think I lost the comment around the same thing, but we can't put it off on the parents. Because a lot of our parents are adult children of trauma. And they don't have the tools or the framework without the support of educators or policymakers, if they don't have that, they can't support them. It's like asking a baby to stop crying. Because they just don't have the tools to do it. So one of the most important things is providing parents with the tools and the support they need. There it is, the blaming parents part, and we can't blame the parents, a lot don't have the support or the tools they need to help, and they need that support. And if they get the support, maybe they have the tools, and compassion is gone. For parents in this situation, I think the first thing you have to do is review your school's disciplinary policy. And what you're looking for are those zero-tolerance policies in there. Because Zero Tolerance is a big push in the school-to-prison pipeline, if you do this, you're out. And that can be interpreted in many ways. So zero-tolerance policies just don't work anyway. So you're looking for anything that's been amended or anything that's been added new. And when you see those things, your next step is to ask questions. And people say it all the time, there's no such thing as a dumb question. And I know a lot of parents, when they get into a room of educators and educators start spitting out 504s and IEPs. That can be intimidating. But you can't be afraid to ask questions. You have to be that parent, sometimes if they don't know your face, make sure they know your email.

Guy Stephens: 47:10

And questions can be really powerful. I had a friend and mentor that used to say that when you ask questions, you control the narrative. And I'm a big fan of even very simple approaches, like continuing to drill down by asking why. I mean, the first answer you get, if it doesn't really make sense, ask the question why? And sometimes, by asking why, repeatedly, we get down to really what's going on. And sometimes people even begin to doubt their own assertions, after you've really just kind of asked questions. So why, can be a really powerful question. So looking at the policies, maybe going to a school board meeting and bringing up concerns that they have, and connecting with other parents or families. I mean, those are all things that people might do,

Leonard Webb: 47:57

Yes, you get involved. The next thing you get involved. And it goes the same way with educators, your first call to a parent shouldn't be your child's in trouble. Your first call should always be I'm happy to have your child in my class. Is there anything I need to know? Everybody should have that first call. And then you want to look critically at some trends, who's getting suspended, who's getting expelled? Who's getting ISS and things like that? And because

Guy Stephens: 48:30

if you can predict it, you can prevent it. That's right. I love that. And you often have data, you can ask people and say, who are the frequent fliers in your school discipline program? These are kids that need help, they don't need more, zero-tolerance, more policies that are going to exclude them. And because this kid gets excluded enough, a kid that gets enough punishment becomes disengaged. What kind of person wants to go to a place you don't feel welcome?

Leonard Webb: 48:57

Look for the root causes. A child that's coming late, you may find out that child has to take a younger sibling to school before they come to school. Can't get on a bus. You know, again, back to the why. And again, getting back to relationships. There's a difference between saying, I'm glad you made it, or you finally made it vs I'm happy you got

Guy Stephens: 49:32

Yeah. I mentioned to you earlier that we have a here. lot of people from a lot of places that join us. And we've already talked about Canada, and the UK, I'm really happy to see my friend, Linda here, who is from New Zealand, where it is bright and early, I guess, Friday morning. So you can let your students know that not only did they get a shout-out, but people across the world got to know that they got a shout-out. Linda, glad that you're here. Let's look at a couple of comments here. Let's see, Trish our colleges need to require trauma-informed practices as part of teacher education programs. I agree, and I think they need some neuroscience and trauma-informed education. It should not be an elective, but an absolute requirement along with mental health. Tracy said, my 12-year-old developmentally disabled traumatized kid got a$74 ticket from a school SRO for picking up a cigarette butt he found near the school bus and bringing it into the school. We're fighting it.

Leonard Webb: 50:40

This is an increasing problem that's going on with a lot of school districts, and these fines that are handed out by school resource officers, now it's a debt. And how do you leave high school with debt? It's awful that is happening across the country, and I hope that person is fighting it and I wish you the best outcome that really upsets me to see that is happening to students.

Guy Stephens: 51:12

I know that parent and Tracy is one that will certainly be fighting it. But, this is exhausting. She mentioned the kids get blamed, the parents get blamed, and everyone gets run down through all of this, it can be a challenge to be putting food on the table and take care of all of your children. Now, you've got something else that's on top of you, when things are difficult enough already. You know, this is tough. We talked a little bit about school resource officers. And, even people that I've talked to that have very different opinions on SROs. But one of the things that I can never get out of my mind when it comes to the police in schools, because I've heard this from all sorts of people, our kids love our school resource officer, or they're really great. And, I think that we often forget that not everybody's experiences the same. There are people that have very negative experiences with police, there are communities that have very negative experiences with police, and a police officer around is not something that is subjectively helping everyone to feel safer. So can you talk a little bit more about your thoughts on, police in schools and what we can be dealing? I mean, and how, you know, how does that, I mean, I think it seems pretty direct to me, but how does, please sin schools connect with a school-to-prison pipeline?

Leonard Webb: 52:52

This is one of those fear-driven agendas, where school shootings and having police officer school resource officers in the building is promoting safety when actual data says no, it doesn't, it promotes more violence, and kids not feeling secure. It promotes a negative attitude towards schools. And I hear that a lot. You know, we love our school resource officers. And a lot of those schools, I hear that from, function just fine without them. It's just they're, they're kind of the old community police, we walk in, we do a little, you know, show, but for the most part, the presence of school resource officers that aren't trained in childhood brain development. I was in a school a while ago, and I was walking through the hallway with the principal. And the national anthem came on, or the Pledge of Allegiance, I'm sorry, came on. And we stopped, I stopped and, you know, put my hand over my heart. And there's kids that came in late trying to get the class, and the school resource officer said, Why didn't you stop? And now they're engaged in a conflict over, he didn't stop for that's not your job, even if you're in a school resource officer. And that's what happens. Teachers are using school resource officers as classroom management. If they're there for the security of a year afraid of the school shooter, you're living in that fear, then keep them out the bathrooms, keep them out of hallway patrol, keep them out your classrooms, if that's the reason they're there, they should almost be invisible. But what's happening is they're not invisible. They bring their own biases, they bring their own education or lack thereof towards how schools should be functioning. And they bring law enforcement into the building. So now some money not stopping and standing for the Pledge has turned into a crime because it's now escalated to a verbal confrontation. And now, an Eagles involved. And it just turns out bad and that's why you see kids getting handcuffed and not over a crime, because most times, it's not a crime. You know, it's not a crime to disrupt class. It's not a crime to walk out. But they're turning into crimes, because when children are experiencing trauma, you've turned a not, doing my assignment or not standing for the Pledge into an assault. And that's what's continually happening.

Guy Stephens: 55:48

Yeah. And, we've also found that very often there's these kinds of MOU is kind of memorandums of understanding between a police department and a school. And, often in the things that we've seen, those MOU may be very specific about the role of the police in a school. And often, they are the B, once they're there, they're brought in for school discipline. I mean, it's almost scared straight, like, let's bring in the police officer to, to handle this and get pulled into situations, of course, I think there probably are people in those positions, officers in those positions that know where the lines are, and probably respect them and stay with them. But if you're being asked by somebody that you think you're there to serve, to do something, you could very easily be pulled into situations that we should never have law enforcement involved in, at a school.

Leonard Webb: 56:40

And there's very tricky areas to that because the principal can have to question a student about an incident. If law enforcement is in the room, that conversation is not privileged. And I tell kids, they either tell the law enforcement officer that they can leave, or say I'm not talking until a parent arrives or I'm talking until an attorney arrives. The police officer is gonna be in the room because that's kind of the way they skirt these MOUs. The principal or whoever is questioning a student about an incident and the police officers in the room. Now, that's evidence in the state of Maryland, that you don't have to Mirandize juveniles. So that's a problem.

Guy Stephens: 57:35

You mentioned the lack of training. What's interesting, me, I was actually, last fall, in a community event with our superintendent. And it was kind of a q&a kind of event, the new superintendent was hosting. And, the police in schools came up. And I had asked the question, and somebody that was kind of involved with the program, proudly responded to me to tell me that the police that are chosen as SROs have 20 hours of training in it. Well, that was my response, right? I'm like, 20 hours. I've watched TV series on Netflix that are less than 20 hours. I mean, this is not adequate for switching from all the training you did in law enforcement to working differently with a five-year-old. Understanding brain development, understanding trauma, and understanding all the things that you might need to do differently. And I don't think that's unusual. I think, often there's little or no specialized training. And it's really inappropriate, don't you think?

Leonard Webb: 58:46

Yeah. Listen, we have so much police brutality and police corruption. And I know from being in law enforcement for 27 years, I went through that eight-hour ethics class too. But after that, you don't get much.

Guy Stephens: 59:05

Right. Linda just brought up so grateful not to have SROs or similar here in New Zealand. So what's different about our kids here in the United States that we need SROs? And, of course, I have an answer to that, which is nothing. Nothing is intrinsically different about kids in different places. And, we find that there are those that are successful without doing the things that we think we need to do.

Leonard Webb: 59:33

It's really is, and who's paying for it, that, usually is where I start, who's paying for these? Who authorized taxpayer money to pay for the school district plan? We have students that have lunch debt, but we're paying SROs to be in a building. That money that goes to SRO can go to so much that can go to a social worker that has an impact, beyond security.

Guy Stephens: 1:00:12

Yeah, A lot of progress to be made there, for sure. So what kind of work are you doing today? So, I know you speak around the country and around the state, tell me about the kind of work you're doing today and what you're doing to continue to contribute to bringing change about all of us.

Leonard Webb: 1:00:34

One of the things I do is help children find their way through life after high school, whether that's financial aid wise, doing seminars on financial aid, and getting them money for college, or preparing them for something else outside of high school, whatever career path they're choosing. So I talked to a lot of kids about goals and career choices. And just my first book was called Youth Champs, and the focus was on choices, habits, attitudes, mindset, and purpose. And I use that framework to build champions, as I say. And with teachers, I try and do professional development, with teachers and administrators that build on the relationships. And one of the things that I like to start with educators is What's your why? And like you said, Why is a great question? If we're going to alter the trajectory of a child's life, then we have to know our purpose? So that's one of the things I start with. And then it's getting them back to what are you grateful for? Where, and how are you being stretched? And where do you need development it? So before I even go into school, those are the questions I like to kind of survey with educators. And with administrators, I like to focus my talks on the culture of your building. And one of the things I like to do is try and see the building through the eyes of your student. And I went through this with one principal. And I said, just walk through the building and tell me what you see. And, the principal, said, You know, I see a lot of sports trophies, and then I said, Okay, when you get in, you turn left or right, I'll turn right as a student. And I'll go down the hallway, and I'll see the awards, the high SAT scores, there are more sports, trophies, and things. And as I go down the hallway, there's the gym to the right. And there are more sports trophies, and mainly football, and I go to the left, and there's more about schools that are doing educationally well, and I said, did you feel represented Do you feel affirmed? And he said, I do. But now that you mentioned it, if I'm that kind of borderline student and isn't involved in athletics or extracurriculars, I don't.

Guy Stephens: 1:03:17

There are a lot of students that aren't involved in sports or extracurriculars.

Leonard Webb: 1:03:22

if that's what you see, when you walk in that building, imagine what that child feels like, I'm not an A student. I don't have a 1360 on my SATs. I don't I haven't rushed for 1000 yards. But that's all they see as they walked to the classroom. And I think that that kind of if more people would do that, that would open their eyes, But if more people would do that, you might find that empathy. For some of the students that you see, you might find out why they're doing some of the things that they do. Now, one of the stories I like to tell my wife's school counselor is there was a student at her school who had beautiful hair. And one day, he came to school and it was all cut off. So he on the bus, they were teasing him about being having a bald head. I don't know why they teased him about being a baldhead.

Guy Stephens: 1:04:27

yeah, I don't know what's wrong with that.

Leonard Webb: 1:04:29

But they are teasing him on the bus. So he put his hood on and he went to class with his hood on immediately, compliance punitive. Take your hood off. Why do you have your hood on? Nobody thought to ask why. When somebody finally did, they found out that his older brother did something wrong. And the mom shaved the older brother's head. So an act of solidarity He shaved his own head. And if somebody would have just sat down with the challenge and why. And, for me, a hood doesn't affect how you learn, you know, I wear Jordans, I still can't jump on the curb. You know, they haven't helped me. So we're taking these minor things and creating a mess with them. When we could just say, why? What happened? And understand what some of these kids are going through. Rather than being disciplined, and now he's disciplined at school, he got in trouble at school. Now he has to go home and tell a parent who may be an adult child of trauma that he's been disciplined at school, so he's gonna get additional discipline at home, she can't cut his hair. So what is she gonna do next? And these are the things that they don't think about.

Guy Stephens: 1:06:00

Yeah, absolutely. You know, you mentioned something that's always near and dear to my heart. And that's relationships. And I think relationships are always so critical in working with anyone. And I mean, it's applicable to all of us. We all feel the safest when we're with people that we know, and that we trust. They would see us and value us, we do our best work for people that we like, whether in a career or in the classroom. And of course, I think, probably much like you, we are very supportive of teachers and paraprofessionals, and administrators and trying to be part of helping to find solutions versus just saying, hey, these things are all wrong. But as we talk about relationships, we sometimes hear things like, I just don't have time to make relationships with all the kids in my class, we sometimes find that if I had to be honest with you that sometimes people lack the, maybe even adults lack the skills to make those relationships, or aren't sure how to do it. So tell me, I mean, as somebody that I think, has built their career around this around developing relationships, about seeing the strength of people through those relationships. You know, what is your advice for an educator that feels overwhelmed? And is having a hard time? What might you say to somebody that is a first-year teacher that heard relationships are important, but has no idea what to do? Any tips that you might offer?

Leonard Webb: 1:07:39

Take the risk. And what I mean by risk is "R" is for real relationships, and real relationships are developed through asking questions. What music do you like? What do you do after school? Do you like reading books? The other day, you know, I had students in my office, and they said Mr. Webb get in this Tiktok with me, and I got in the Tiktok.

Guy Stephens: 1:08:07

If I had only known, I would have that ready to queue up.

Leonard Webb: 1:08:12

But that shows, I'm interested in you more than a student, I'm interested in you as a person. That's what a real relationship is. I'm interested in more than just as an educator's student, I'm providing you with something. I'm interested in you as a person and what you like and what you don't like. And sometimes it's hard, because we have to be a little transparent, we have to be a little vulnerable. But that's the birth. That's how we have real relationships is being vulnerable, and being transparent. The "I" for intentional actions, and being intentional with your time, being intentional with your resources, but also being intentional with how you do things. And what I mean by that is, when you hear another teacher talking about a student in a negative way, you have to be intentional about being interrupting. You just have to, because then we become the gossipers. And I always say the teacher's lounge is the worst place to be for gossiping. So it's very important to be intentional with how you do things. And to make sure just like when I was in the prison system, given handshakes and fist bumps, I was intentional about that. And I didn't let up regardless of how I was treated. It was something intentional, I would do, and eventually people found out I wasn't gonna give up on that. And when people find out that you're not going to let them talk negatively about a child, then that changes the culture. The answers for safe spaces, and like the board behind me, you can tell by how what they wrote they feel safe here. And when a child comes to me and says, let's take a selfie. I know they feel safe. I know it's more than picture to them. It says I feel safe. I feel affirmed. I feel represented. I have a selfie wall over here. might show it to you.

Guy Stephens: 1:10:16

That's great. Yeah. authentic, right. I mean, it's about being authentic. I sometimes hear things like, well, it's a therapeutic rapport. No, it's about authentic relationships. And I think, even to the point of, my son's a good example, he's somebody I would call a relationship kid. I think a lot of kids are relationship kids, although some are even more dependent on it than others. And if somebody's not willing to share a little bit about themselves, that's not a relationship. That's like, you want me to tell you things, but you don't want to share anything with me. That's not real. It's not authentic. I mean, I think it's got to be authentic kids see, right through things that aren't

Leonard Webb: 1:10:52

When kids feel safe, they will tell you things, and they will ask questions. And the K for risk is for keep asking questions. How are they doing? What's going on? Just keep if there's something you don't understand it from a cultural standpoint, ask this question. We don't have we're not the authority on the kids, they are the authority on themselves. So it makes them feel empowered when you ask them questions. So that's what I like to call taking the risk. The risk, your relationships, intentional action, safe spaces, and keep asking questions.

Guy Stephens: 1:11:32

Love it, love it. Great, great practical advice. Well, listen, we had been going for quite some time now. And it's time for us to head towards wrapping things up. But I promised you that I would have us done by a certain time. And I want to make sure I honor that. But as we're wrapping up, I just want to say one, if you're watching and have any final questions, or just want to say thank you, feel free to in the chat. And for you, Leonard, just wanted to see if you had kind of any final thoughts, any final words, anything you wanted to share with us? You know, as we wrap things up here today.

Leonard Webb: 1:12:06

If this country wants to be the leader in education, it can't continue to be behind in the race to end the school-to-prison pipeline, we have to be trauma-informed, and we have to correct the disparities.

Guy Stephens: 1:12:23

Absolutely, there's so much room and potential to do better. Earlier shared the quote that really resonated with me, rather than trying to figure out about pulling people out of the river, let's go upstream and figure out why they're falling in. The other quote is, the one about, when we can do better, we should, and I didn't get that exactly right, kind of this idea that you do the best you can until you know better, and when you know better, do better. We know better now, and it's about doing better. So I want to thank you for being with us, and I see a couple of thank yous beginning to pop here into our chat. You know, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you setting some time aside to talk to us appreciate the students that left us a message, and the work you're doing. You've had a career of doing this really important work. And I think the scope of what you're doing now has so much potential as you talk about your children and grandchildren and what we can do to make the world a better place. This is really important. And I appreciate all that you're doing, not just on behalf of your children, and grandchildren, but mine and so many others. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, I appreciate that. And, I hope to get up to your area, the woods there, maybe over the summer, and maybe get an opportunity to visit with you. So at this point, we will end our broadcast. I want to thank everybody that was watching today for joining us. As always, I want to remind you part of the point of doing these is this is really valuable information. The information that you learn in these live events that we do and the perspectives are critical for bringing about change. And the way we do that is we spread the word. So please share these live events with your fellow parents or educators, or if you're a parent sharing with your teachers, if your teachers sharing with your administrators, we need to do more to amplify all these important messages that we hear. So I want to thank everybody for joining us today. Leonard, you can hang around for a second, and we will end the broadcast here, but I look forward to chatting with you again. Take care