An interview with Polina Shkadron, a trauma-informed speech-language pathologist, discussing the impact of stress.

An interview with Polina Shkadron, a trauma-informed speech-language pathologist, discussing the impact of stress.

Polina Shkadron is a trauma-informed speech-language pathologist with specialties in the areas of autism, ADHD, language, and literacy. She earned her Master of Art degree in speech-language pathology from CUNY Queens College where she held the position of Adjunct Lecturer for the past 7 years. She also has a Master of Science degree in Nutrition Education from American University, which has transformed the feeding therapy portion of her practice. Throughout the course of her career, Polina has earned four ACE awards from the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association for her dedication to learning.

She coaches parents using play and brain-based research to foster understanding and deeper connections, laying foundational principles of development. Polina approaches each family dynamic from a holistic lens, acknowledging challenges, examining the environment, and focusing on promoting self-efficacy in the parent and the child.

Transcript

Guy Stephens: 0:11

Well, hello, and welcome and you are not imagining things we are here at a different time today. We're here at noon Eastern time, which of course, if you're on the west coast that may be nine o'clock in the morning for you. If you're in New Zealand, I've got to think about the math. Probably, oh, gosh, it's probably the middle of the night. So you might not be joining us live from New Zealand today. But if you get a chance to watch afterwards, you'll know we were at a different time today. And as always, I'm excited about our show today, we've got some great stuff coming up. Before I dive in, I'll just introduce myself. My name is Guy Stevens. I'm the founder and executive director of the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint. And of course, if you're not familiar with the Alliance, we're an organization that formed a little over four years ago, we are really focused on not only things like restraint, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, corporal punishment, even more broadly, kind of all the things that are often being done to kids very often and then bad behavior. And we're trying to push for changes in laws, changes in practices, so that we can better support not only kids, but teachers and staff as well. You know, education is a difficult and challenging job. And certainly, these have been tough times in recent years, kind of following the pandemic and everything else going on. So we're here really to collaborate and to work with others, to find solutions and to move things forward. So again, if you're joining us live, here, please go to the chat and tell us who you are and where you're from. I always enjoyed sharing with the guests where we have people joining us from, and it's always fun to see and again, I I realized we might not have our New Zealand friends today. But we typically have people from all over the world. So it's a lot of fun to see where you're from, whether it's here in the US or somewhere else. So tell us in the comments, who you are and where you're from. So I do want to let you know, in terms of our show today, I am very excited to have our guest with us Polina Shkadron, and Polina is joining us for a special discussion, we're gonna talk a little bit about kind of trauma-informed approaches, we're going to talk a lot about doing this work in supporting people. And I think it will be a really fun conversation. As always, this event is being recorded. So it will be available, live, of course, on Facebook, YouTube, LinkedIn, and as an audio podcast. But after the fact, you can go to any of these channels as well, and view it. So if you're not able to watch the whole thing, right now, you can come back and listen, or watch later. So with all of that, let's get to the exciting part. Because the exciting part ups, the exciting part is not you listening to me. And as I went down on my screen to let our guests in, I noticed my guest is disappeared. So it looks like we might have had a short technical difficulty here. And hopefully, we're working on getting her reconnected here. So in the meantime, if you would tell us who you are, where you're from, and we'll go ahead and introduce our guests here in a moment, assuming that she's able to join us again here momentarily. All right. And I see Beth from San Jose, California, educator, parent of two autistic sons, and a volunteer advocate for Lives in the Balance. Fantastic. Cass, I see Cass Griffin Bennett from Washington State, also a recent volunteer here at the Alliance, and one that's doing some amazing work. Who else is watching us live? Let us know. And I'm hoping that we're going to have our guest here. Here we go. We're getting our guests rejoined here. Well, hello, there we go. And now it's time to introduce our guest. And poof, you were gone. I've never had a guest leave me. I mean, I've never had a guest say, that introduction was not what I was thinking it was gonna be. I'm out of here. And I thought, Oh, gee, this is gonna be an interesting show. But I'm glad to see your back. A little technical difficulty, perhaps, but I have not done your introduction yet. So I'm gonna go and read the introduction and get started in a conversation. You know, and I'd said before, I was trying to get the correct pronunciation of your name. And I thought, Oh, gee, I pronounced that wrong. And she left. I mean, I knew that was just really gonna do it badly. But so I'm just gonna stick with the first name now, just so don't make any more mistakes here. So Polina is a trauma-informed speech-language pathologist with specialties in the area of autism, ADHD, language, and literacy. She earned her master of art degree in speech-language pathology, from CU N Y. Queens College, where she held up the position of adjunct lecturer for the past seven years. She has a Master of Science degree in nutrition education from the American University, which has transformed the feeding therapy portion of her practice, and that'll be interesting to talk about as well. And throughout the course, her career plan has earned ASOS words from the American Speech Language Hearing Association for dedication to learning. She coaches parents using Play and brain-based research to foster understanding and deeper connections, layering, and foundational principles of development. And, of course, Polina also approaches each family dynamic from a holistic lens, acknowledging challenges by examining the environment and focusing on promoting self-efficacy in the parent and the child. And we are really excited to have you here today. You know, it's funny, because I think we met and had a conversation some time ago. And at some point, we began booking our shows out further and further in advance. And I'm like, wow, it feels like forever ago that we talked. But I remember as we were having conversations, I'm like, I've got to have you on, you've got to join me on an AASR live. And we do this really to share information and to share ideas. And there was a lot that you were talking about when we met that really resonated with me, and a lot about your approach. We're just thrilled to have you here today. And I will try not to make any more mistakes that make you run off. And so welcome. Thanks for joining.

Polina Shkadron: 6:13

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Guy Stephens: 6:16

And before we got on with sharing some of the where people are from and who signed on, and I see a couple of people have jumped in. You know, I did decide that being that it's probably around three o'clock in the morning in New Zealand. We might not see our New Zealand friends now, but hopefully, we'll see them on the recorded event, but we have somebody here from Connecticut. Let's see Devona Smith from Connecticut and Think Kids, okay, I think kids is from the University of Massachusetts, I believe. love your webinars so much. You're doing important work, thank you. And thank you, you're working with young kids for the work that you're doing. We have someone here, Nicole is a friend and ally from New Jersey, a previous educator as well. CASS Griffith Bennett from Washington State, a volunteer, and we've got an educator and parent of two autistic sons from San Jose. So we've got a couple of people that have jumped in on the chat and said hello. But again, if you're on here, tell us who you are and where you're from. I see Sundae from Michigan, just joining us as well. So you and I had an opportunity. And I'm trying to remember how we connected in the first place. But I think it was probably a connection through a connection of some sort. But we had an opportunity to connect and have some conversation about the work that you're doing. And I wonder if a good starting point. I read your bio, but is to tell us a little bit about how you went down the road that you went down? So how did you end up doing what you do today? And, you know, how did that interest kind of come to be? So can you tell us a little bit about kind of your journey?

Polina Shkadron: 7:49

Sure. So I initially never thought I was going to work with children. I always had a numbers brain, and I was into just puzzles and figuring out complex ideas. And I feel like the profession found me, not the other way around. I wound up stumbling into a special education preschool where my mom was actually an educator. And that was almost 20 years ago. And I started really, it's been a journey.

Guy Stephens: 8:25

Well, you said almost 20 years ago, and I don't know that I've ever shared this before. And not that it's anything huge. But when I think back to the past, when I was in college, I remember taking some career assessments, different career assessments that you could do. And I remember speech-language pathology came back as my number one choice one year when I was in school as a career. And I don't even think I knew what speech-language pathology was at that point. But you said 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, well, yeah, that's probably more than 20 years ago, but I remember thinking, what is that? So anyway, so you began to get this interest and kind of what happened from there.

Polina Shkadron: 9:06

And, I had really great mentors along the way that really molded my thinking and my approach. And I was from a young age, I was always termed like an overachiever a little bit. And I was always into learning, and I still am. You read off the alphabet soup that follows my name, as some people like to say, and it's just because there's always such new and interesting information. And me educating myself continues to support my clients. And it really took the process of I think I was just really fortunate enough to get to be accepted into a high-level graduate program where because of the program that I was in, and the people who are around me it really just opened my eyes to what a relationship based approach is like, what play is and how dynamic it could be, and how you could get really into the world of whoever you are working with, and really see it from their point of view. And I think that over the years, I've really honed in on that skill. And I can pretty much like transform my way of thinking and look at every situation from which whoever I'm working with, and then be able to let the parent know, let's see if the parent is in the session, what's actually going on. And I've had some parents say, Well, how did you get that? How in the world did you just figure out that what he said wasn't actually what he meant? Or how did you see it from such a different lens? And I think it's just, people talk about a sixth sense. You know, I think that's, that's part of it. It's just this intuitive nature over the years that has really helped me hone in on what each individual child and family really need. What are they looking for? And how can I help them and bring out the strengths and really show we, you mentioned self-efficacy, it's really showing the parent and the child that they can be successful, and what that feeling of success looks like, because then when the parent sees it, and the kid's eyes light up because they just figured something out that they thought was impossible. It's that feeling that this is a success, like, there are no stickers, there are no rewards, and there are no charts, I always say that all roads lead back to regulation. And if there's something challenging, that's going on it, we really have to back up and figure out what's happening to the nervous system, what's really going on underneath because you can't out reward dysregulation it's just impossible.

Guy Stephens: 12:07

Absolutely, but I'll tell you that there sure are a lot of attempts to do that. There are a lot of attempts, in our schools, in particular, a lot of the kinds of traditional behaviorist approaches are alive and well. And there are a lot of well-intentioned folks that are there to help, that are using approaches that are heavily steeped in rewards and consequences, and not realizing how not only ineffective they can be, but harmful, quite frankly. that they can be, you know, very often, we might see a neurodivergent child who doesn't earn a reward that they anticipated earning, and in their mind, they may have already earned that reward. And, we might see the dysregulation become the reward, become the basis of a dysregulated nervous system. So, you of course, are a consultant, and you've got a consulting company called Play to Learn, which the title, right there, catches me. But tell me a little bit about the work that you're doing now? I know you work with individuals, you work with families, you work around behavior, you work around eating, can you give us a high level of kind of some of the areas of work that you're doing now and a little insight into kind of how you do it?

Polina Shkadron: 13:36

Sure, I, some of the work that I'm doing is really around executive functioning. and I lecture on executive functioning also, for a professional development company. And it's really helping parents and professionals understand that when there is a lack of skill, that's where we need to start. And it's about figuring out where those gaps are, because then what happens is we create an expectation gap. And we almost expect kids depending on their chronological age, so just all of a sudden, reach up and jump to what we expect them to do. And we're setting them up to fail in that way. So I'm looking at, like, where are the difficulties because it's not a behavior-based problem. It's a skill deficit. And when we can build up when we build up the skills really from the ground up, and it's regardless of age. I recently started with a 10 year old and I'm thinking, okay, we're working on regulation because that's where we're living, and that's where the difficulties are. And once we can have her regulate, and she can feel what regulation is like, then language will come to the surface. And it's very different. And then, when new families come in, I let them know that it might be a shock to their system. If they've had experiences before, and it's something that they really want. They really do want to understand, because what they've been doing so far hasn't been working for them. And that's another really great question that I ask when, even when I speak to other educators, and they let me know that they're still these behaviors that are coming to the surface. And this is what we've been doing. And the question that I ask is, that sounds great, how has it been working for you? Because I know that it hasn't been? No, and that's the reason that you're that they're reaching out. So I'm looking at it's an intertwining network of all of these pieces, and stemming from regulation. And we're going into inhibition, impulse control, areas of working memory, and how do we ensure basic problem solving, because then we also start working on the language aspect. And,we do address comprehension and, and cognition, too. You can't, if you're not understanding the information that's coming in, and you're having a difficult time sorting through all of that information, you don't know how to respond. And that's where the breakdown, that's where the breakdown occurs. So if the child isn't responding, it's because it's on us, right? It's really on the adults to go. It's over here. What am I doing, rather than what I often hear, like, they're not listening, they can't sit still. They can't follow directions. And I say, Okay, well, I hear a lot of cans, where's the can? Like, tell me something that your kid is so so good at. And I remember asking one parent that when we started a call, I said, this sounds great. I'm so glad you reached out, what's one thing that your child is so good at? And she paused? And she goes, No one has ever asked me that. And I'm almost embarrassed that I don't know how to answer because all of the focus has been on what he can't do. Rather than what makes him smile, what is something that will really engage him? Tell me what he's really good at. And that's a strength-based approach where that's where the research is, that's where the research is going slowly, looking into, especially for ADHD, looking into resilience and strength-based approach and how that trajects from childhood into adolescence and then into adulthood.

Guy Stephens: 17:48

You know, so much of what you were talking about is, I think, very aligned with some of the other approaches out there that if gained some momentum, but certainly not enough, I think about Ross Greene's work and, Collaborative Proactive Solutions, and Devona, who is here with Think Kids, collaborative problem solving, these ideas that, kids do well, if they can, versus this predisposition, I think that we have things that kids do well, if they want to, and when you think kids do well, if they want to you frame it, as a matter of motivating them might be okay, well, here's a bag of Skittles, or here's a cookie, or here's something to motivate you, because obviously, that's a problem, when in fact, so often it's a matter of skill, ability, other obstacles, and when we're just going down this road of rewards and consequences, we're not getting to the underlying issues. But the challenge is, and you touched on this a bit, is how you help people to realize that we've got an audience here of people that have really, I think, come to some of these realizations about the importance of relationships, the importance of connection, the fact that if a kid is dysregulated, if any of us are dysregulated, our thinking brain is going offline, right? So, and again, many people are gonna bring up Cass's comment here:"Rewards are super counterproductive for many neurodivergent kids, and I wish more educators understood that." So to that point, do you work with parents, and do you work with educators as well? And, whether it be a parent or an educator, what else do you do to kind of lead people in this direction? Because this is one of the key challenges here is some of this information is there in terms of understanding the way the brain works in terms of understanding, better approaches, but it's not widely adopted. Tell me about things you found to help in that direction.

Polina Shkadron: 19:53

I know. I think I've come up against more challenges when even attempting to break into the school system and having calls with different areas of the Department of Education and saying, let me help your school. Let me do this for you. Because it's not just for the neurodivergent kids, they said anyone can benefit. The fact that your general education classroom teacher can look for certain tidbits. And really, yes, it's a large classroom. And yes, the teachers have so much going on. And yet, there's just such a small and simple shift. It's a mindset shift. The words that we're using, and this is where the language piece comes in. Because we could say the same thing. But we're not really saying the same thing. Right? Because of the words that I'm using, I'm choosing a really, really strategic, and then the child responds completely differently. And when you see that, and parents look at the result, you get this aha moment of "oh, so he didn't throw the toy, because the first thing I said to him, wasn't a no," and I go, right? Because imagine how many times a day he gets a no or she gets hit with a no, where it's constant. It's like everything is a no. So now they're living in the world of no, where we really want them to live in the world of Yes. And, I think it's the professional development, piece a has been really, really crucial. And that's something that has opened up the understanding of other mental health professionals, where they've known a little bit about executive function pieces, but they don't quite know how they're intertwined with social-emotional development, language, and cognition. And we're looking at all of these aspects and developmental domains as being separate, and they can't be. And that's where we're looking at the child as a whole. And the person as a whole, where we have to figure out like, yes, the cognition may be like, super high, where you're looking at an IQ score, and you're saying, well, he's really smart, why can't he understand that? This isn't allowed? And I go, Okay, well, we're looking at a social-emotional piece too. And that social-emotional aspect is where we really need to be. And once that grows, it's everything else is going to slowly fall into place. You'll see, I tell educators; also, I say that we're not the reason I don't work on the behaviors, because it's going to disappear. It'll disappear on its own because the nervous system is not going to need it. Right, the child's not going to need to feel like they're always protecting themselves, or they're always on high alert because the stress level is so high. They're going to know that. Okay, eventually, I can figure out what's happening with me, like, what's going on? And why my nervous system is responding in a certain way. And depending on the age or the language, obviously, the language changes, and the methodology stays the same. It's still acknowledging the fact that this was really hard, your block tower fell over, and you're right. Okay, let's just sit here, in this discomfort. And instead of distracting from that discomfort, we want to help kids work through the discomfort. And that's something that can be really challenging in the beginning, it's being comfortable around somebody else's discomfort and not allowing that discomfort to dysregulate you.

Guy Stephens: 23:58

Right. And that is part of the key, the well-regulated adult, whether it's a caregiver, whether it's a professional, whether it's an educator. As we begin to become dysregulated, everything at that point goes in the wrong direction. But it's hard to do, sometimes it's hard to always keep yourself regulated. But I think that's where we've got to look for strategies to help support educators and others that are in these situations. You know, one of the things that struck me from what you said, and struck me in kind of a sad and tragic way. When you talked about how approaching from a strengths base, you would talk to parents, and you'd ask them about what they're good at. And, one of the things that come to mind quickly with that is the difficulty of being a parent sometimes, in a system where you go to an IEP meeting and all you're hearing is all the negative things about your child. I can tell you because I've sat in those meetings and heard those things about my own child. That is really difficult. How do you help parents that have been in that position to begin to discover and appreciate the things about their child? When we look at every individual, and all the individual differences between us all, there is so much that can be amazing about people that are overlooked, unappreciated, undervalued, or underestimated. So how do you work with parents to help them to kind of realize what makes their own child special,

Polina Shkadron: 25:39

We highlight the small things, because the small things are the big things, and this is why oftentimes, I invite parents into the therapy setting. And, the first thing I tell them is to wear comfortable clothing, because we move around a lot. Like, make sure that you are ready to go. And it's important to then note, did you just notice this, in particular, this right here is going to lead to all of the other steps because I can foresee where it's going. And as a parent, if you're just stuck in this moment, and in the now, everything isn't going well. It's just that nothing's going well. And I'm so concerned. And I'm really worried because I heard recently, he had such a bad week. But what does that mean? You mean, there was some dysregulation, there was a little bit of stress? Where the expectations too high? What does it mean that a three-and-a-half-year-old had a bad week?

Guy Stephens: 26:46

Or they got a piece of paper that came home with lots of sad faces and red ink, which is heartbreaking because kids internalize that. Imagine going anyplace on a daily basis, and every hour that you did something having to fill it out or in a different color to show that you didn't do so good, you didn't meet our expectations, and then have to carry it home. I don't know how many behavior sheets we got home when my son was very young that was crumbled up or had been ripped up. And, of course, the burden that we put on children sometimes can be immense, and it affects them. I was having a conversation with a family member recently that has a younger daughter in first grade, who was beginning to say, "I'm a bad kid, I'm a bad kid." That was a message coming home. What a burden that we put on kids.

Polina Shkadron: 27:38

And it's so interesting. You say that because I've heard that too. I've worked with a little guy who was suspended from kindergarten.

Guy Stephens: 27:47

Oh, gosh.

Polina Shkadron: 27:49

And something that he said was along the lines of what you mentioned, and it was more like, I'm not very good at being a kid. And like that, if that doesn't get you, I don't know what will, that's how he felt throughout the school year. I'm not good at being a kid. I don't know what's happening. And this is something that I can't control. He's like, I don't know, my brain just told me to do it, so I did it.

Guy Stephens: 28:18

Oh my gosh, I mean, that's that statement, my son, when he was very young, and we would ask him, that was exactly what he said, I don't know, my brain told me to do it, or my brain made me do it. That's what he would say. And there was a lot more insight into that comment than I appreciated for probably another 15 years. But, it really is meaningful when you kind of hear people that are thinking about things that way. So tell me more, so of course, the name of your consulting is Play to Learn. Tell me more about it, of course, there are lots of different approaches out there, in terms of working with and supporting kids. And many of them, as you've kind of identified already. Focus on what I believe are the wrong things. They focus on the behavior, they focus on changing behavior, versus really understanding why somebody's having a hard time and what's getting in their way. They're often very compliance based. So it's all about compliance, and there are some real dangers in all of that. So, I mean, there are a lot of different approaches out there. There are other approaches like Dir floortime. So tell me a little bit about your approach and how play factors into that.

Polina Shkadron: 29:39

And that's why I was I said I was like really just lucky to be trained and mentored by on the floortime methodology. And that's what I've, I've taken with me. And over the years, I've become certified in family trauma and certified in ADHD, and those are the areas where I'm looking for a strength-based approach. And we're figuring out, like, what is the child's intention. So, I'm also working from this intentionality model that looks at the basic underpinnings of language, plus, we're looking at effort, and we're looking at engagement, because when a task takes a lot of effort, then other things have to almost like fall to the wayside. And when we look at how much effort any small problem-solving task takes, then we're going, oh, by the end of this, my sessions are 50 minutes, by the end of this 50-minute session, no wonder the child is yawning. No wonder, and either your kid is going to be hungry, or they're going to be tired because their brain has worked so hard in this time. And it's when you look at it from the outside, it's, oh, they're just playing? What can be so hard about that? And this is where the learning part comes in we're really looking at, here's what the kid is good at. And now, how do I encourage and nudge that a little bit farther? Like, how do I make them, and we talk about, like, positive stress a little bit, right? How do I sprinkle in those tidbits of positive stress to then build up their resilience. And those are the moments that we capitalize on. And in the beginning, I also make those connections for kids, too. So I'd say it's been six months, and I said when we first started, and you couldn't work out that marble run, do you remember that the whole thing came crashing down, and you threw one across the room? Did you just realize that today it was a little tough, and you actually talked yourself through it? And then the kids go, oh, yeah, of course, like they've been doing it forever.

Guy Stephens: 32:09

That's great. I want to hit a couple of comments here real quick. But I love it, I'm a huge believer that to connect with anybody, we need to relate with them. And it's not a matter of pretending that we relate to them, it's actually taking the time to forge a relationship that they feel valued. And, if we really want to access the thinking part of their brain, getting them comfortable getting them in a position where they feel valued.I think there's a whole lot of value to that type of approach, even the kind of the floortime type of approach of connecting, the connection piece. A couple of comments here real quick, Chantel, who's actually one of our volunteers in Canada, said hello from New Brunswick. Cass said again, rewards are super counterproductive. We've talked about that. Let's see Cass shared my three-year-old daughter's robust, high-tech AAC has increased her sense of felt safety incredibly, the largest impact for her has been regulation, which has then flowed into many benefits regarding skills development and fun social engagement. And it's amazing what happens when you feel safe, it's amazing what happens when you are regulated. You know, sometimes the focus is on downstream building the skill or ability, where when we go upstream, and we focus on safety, we focus on regulation, these things can naturally begin to emerge. So there's so much potential there. Michelle said that they're excited to be wearing their Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint shirts today, for a news interview regarding our special education system in Nebraska. Michelle also mentioned, as we were talking about the harm done to children, that her son in the fifth grade wanted to kill himself. I mean, when we are always looking through a deficit mindset. You know, I'm a big proponent of the social model of disability over the medical model, it's not about the deficit, isn't about fixing, it's not about your broken, it's about you're different. We're all different. We all have different abilities and different strengths. But so often it's the focus is on the deficit, and even very young kids bring these things home. The sad face my son got after kindergarten, he started sobbing and said I am six years old, I just want to be a normal kid. I hugged him and told his therapist this to which she replied, You shouldn't have hugged him. Oh, gosh. Because that was some kind of reward. Right? That was, well, you know, and we hear that all the time, that connection is necessary to help, especially dysregulated kids who are having a hard time. Yet people are so focused on the consequence that you provide that a connection is seen as a reinforcer. When it's not right, it's, you know, the only way that we are capable of learning is to be regulated. We do not learn when we're in a dysregulated state. So, to begin throwing consequence points at anyone who is dysregulated is not the way to begin to help them. I mean, I'm a firm believer that ultimately discipline is really about teaching. It's not about providing consequences or rewards, it's about how we help somebody to develop the skills, the abilities, you know, the ability to regulate whatever it may be, but so much of this happens.

Polina Shkadron: 35:53

Yes, and you brought discipline, so the root of it is a disciple,

Guy Stephens: 35:58

Yep, absolutely. And it's to learn and to follow. Laurie Desautels made mention of that in her Connections Over Compliance book. And that really stuck with me. I absolutely read that cover to cover. Well, in fact, we're doing a book study right now on her newer book, Intentional Neuroplasticity, which is another great book. Let's see what else we have here. I just want to see what other comments we have. Cass said during an intake appointment with an OT for my daughter a couple of years ago, I vividly remember the OT remark that she has never had a parent be able to list more than two strengths due to a medical deficit model. We all have to navigate. And that's really unfortunate because I think so much comes good from our perceptions and views of our children as well. I have two children, and they're both amazing kids that I'm very proud of. And, they both have had things that have been challenging, but different, does not mean less. And so often, that deficit mindset leads even people that are there to advocate for kids feeling bad about their kids. And It's hard when you're a parent, and your child is the one that's having difficulty. But that's why people need support and need to be able to work with professionals like yourself that are there to help.

Polina Shkadron: 37:30

And it's a really great point because I remember having a conversation with a dad, and I said, the way that you see her is exactly the way that she's going to continue showing up. Like, that's exactly the way that she's going to continue showing up, because that's the way that you see her. So if you want her to change the way she's showing up, then let's change the way that you see her.

Guy Stephens: 37:52

Right, I think back to that example of the child that comes home with the negative behavior chart, that then is further punished by the parents, because they had a bad day. And the expectations and the things, sometimes we do to children, you would never think about doing another adult. I see a clip chart, where we have a chart in the front of the room that if you're having a hard time, you gotta go move your clip, I can't imagine a workplace that would implement something like that, people would probably leave quickly. And for good reason. A couple more comments here. Cass said, and I don't remember the context of when this came out, but is that really about intentionally building resilience or just the effect of increased regulation?

Polina Shkadron: 38:38

It's both, okay. It's both because it's the intent of building resilience. And the focus is on regulation.

Guy Stephens: 38:49

Do you ever feel this way, resilience strikes me in two ways. Like, in my perfect mindset, here in a perfect world, I want a world where we don't have to be as resilient, meaning that there are a lot of things we ask kids to be resilient about, that we need to stop doing. I mean, we need a certain degree of resilience, right? Because everything is not always gonna go in a perfect world scenario. But, I also wonder how we balance that because I hear a lot of things in regards to trauma. And of course, I'm always that upstream person saying, Well, how do we avoid getting here, like back to that quote from Desmond Tutu about rather than pulling people out of the river, let's go upstream and figure out why they're falling in. Do you ever get struck by that? Or do you have anything to help me balance that thought of how we get away from doing harm and not just lean towards the resiliency that we all have, and even things like neuroplasticity? I mean, it's great that we can create new pathways, but how do we focus on creating less harm?

Polina Shkadron: 40:04

I think it's more about figuring out how do I handle a little bit of struggle. And everybody has that little bit of struggle. It's just the lens that you're looking at it through. I read Angela Duckworth's Grit. Such a great work, how do we build like grittier kids? It's that just right challenge, where it's not too easy, and it's not too hard. And that's where it's a little bit of a struggle of how do I figure it out in a different way? And how do I look at this problem? Not from a fixed mindset, but from a growth mindset.

Guy Stephens: 40:46

Right, I hear you for sure. My heart breaks for a lot of the kids that we know, have a significant amount of trauma. And quite frankly, I mean, when we look at disability, there's a lot traumatizing about how kids are pathologized and treated. And those are areas where it's like, we as adults have such a responsibility to do better and avoid realizing that there are some areas where we definitely need some resilience. But, I just hope that we can continue to do better as a world in the way we treat people. And, resilience, while important, always the degree is not as important for things like traumatic stress and the mistreatment of people. A couple of comments here, Rose Rosa said, Can you please make an example of letting the child endure a little bit of stress?

Polina Shkadron: 41:45

Sure. It's the example I gave of a puzzle piece not working and not fitting, and I don't jump to fix it. Or if we're putting train tracks together, and one of them falls apart. And I'm looking at the parent from the corner of my eye, jumping to fix it, to put it back together. And I go, hold on, let's see how this plays out. And that is that little bit of stress, oh, I just put this track together, I worked so hard, and the whole thing just came crashing down. And we go, you're right, it's so much hard work. It is, and then you sit there just for a little bit to figure out what's going to be the next move instead of right away jumping in to fix it. I am not saying, kids are resilient, they'll get over it. They have to, they just have to learn and go with it. It's more like you really have to dig into the science of resilience. And where that comes from. And it really comes from, here's the train track that fell apart so that the child learns that they don't necessarily have to fall apart with it. In the beginning, that may be the case, because they don't have the skills to go, oh, it's not quite a big deal. I don't tell them that it's not a big deal, because it is a big deal. At this moment. it's the biggest deal ever, for this four-year-old that is the train he worked so hard to put together. It crashed, and something fell apart, and there's that little bit of stress. And we go, all right, now what do we do? And sometimes those tracks go flying across the room, and we go, all right, well, it looks like putting it back together today is so super tough. Like, let's figure out where we're going from here. And oftentimes, it's even without words, it's not that I'm using all of these explanations with a three or four-year-old and even older age. Sometimes it's like the silence that's golden, where it's just taking a moment. And if you don't know what to say, and I tell parents all the time, if you don't know what to say, don't say anything at all. Give yourself a moment, give your kid a moment, and then figure out how you can step in and support. That's really what we're working for and figuring out in the beginning, yes, you might need a lot of support, which is great. And we're going to give you all of that support. Okay, so now how do we figure out to pull back that support just a little bit? Like just so that the kids don't feel like the rug has been pulled out from under them, right? Or I'm not throwing them into the deep end of the pool when they haven't learned how to swim and going, you'll be fine. If you're resilient, you'll learn how to swim. Like that's not what we're doing.

Guy Stephens: 44:52

Right. And, of course, it gets back to what you said earlier, which is there are absolutely different kinds of stress, and there is healthy stress. I mean, healthy stress keeps us moving throughout our day and doing things that we've obligated ourselves to do. And then, of course, there's unhealthy, there's chronic, and there's toxic stress. And there's trauma, and there's a lot of things in between. But, it is important that there is healthy stress. And, those are things that are pushing us sometimes in good directions. There was a follow-up to that I'm gonna skip to it real quick, just because we've got this thread going. And Rose Rosa said, "So what if the child has a meltdown or hurts themselves? How do you avoid it?" And I guess, kind of from what you said and what I heard, was kind of the process of this, right? You want to ultimately help people develop skills and the ability. And, of course, well, let me not talk for you. Let me let you talk and address it.

Polina Shkadron: 45:58

Well, we can't avoid every meltdown, right? And it's not about avoiding it, it's about working through it. And in the beginning, maybe it might take 40 minutes. And you're just there even without language, you're just there to support. And we don't want kids hurting themselves. And there's a very compassionate way to, slowly put a hand down or go yep, you're right. It's really hard. I'm right here, for whatever you need. And you could say, I'm right here with language, or you could say, I'm right here just by where your body positioning is, and like how I'm always turning myself toward the kids and not turning myself away. Like, regardless of what's happening to them. And then they see that, oh, this place is safe. And my relationship is not contingent on how well I do. Like, that's the biggest piece, right? My relationship with every single child who I see is not contingent on doing well, because what does that really mean? Oh, and the way that they show up, that's where the therapy goes. It's not really about the activity, it's about how they're coming in. And if I'm sensing that dysregulation, whatever I had in mind, that's done. And we're focusing on regulating first, regardless of how long that takes.

Guy Stephens: 47:31

So I have a tendency, having had the kind of opportunity to work with, and learn from and just be in the same orbit as some of these people that just are amazing, doing amazing work, and have great ideas. So I tend to blend things in my head. And, as you're talking, I'm thinking, well, that moment that the child becomes a bit dysregulated, there's an opportunity for co-regulation, there's an opportunity to strengthen a relationship. I also think a lot about it because I've been focused a lot on Lori's work recently, Lori just details the opportunity, at some point to work with children and teach them their feelings and sensations when they begin to feel dysregulated. And, hopefully, at some point, not only are you helping kids develop skills, but an awareness of their internal feelings and perceptions, to help them in the future to navigate some of those really difficult times. So, all of this is certainly complicated, but I think the thing you say that's so important, is your relationship is not dependent on their success, and I think a lot of our behavioral-driven approaches seem to equate the connection with compliance. That if you don't meet this expectation, you don't get this thing from me. And that can be so damaging to anyone, quite frankly. We've got a lot of comments here. So I'm going to try to get to a few, let's see what we have here. And there was another one here from Rose, which kind of is in the vein of what I was talking about, what happens during those moments. How do you support regulation? So I mean, what's your approach when a kid clearly has become dysregulated? What do you do to help them in that moment to regain regulation, so you could eventually get back to their ability to think rationally about things?

Polina Shkadron: 49:36

Well, in order for them to, as you said, in order for them to self-regulate, I have to be the co-regulator. So all expectations are pushed to the side. And it's just really them knowing that it's a safe space and there's no it's not that there's wrongdoing. And yes, I saw another comment that said, 40 minutes in distress sounds like a really long time. I am not doing that, I'm not causing it on purpose. Something that didn't go quite right in this child's mind is. There's a young girl who I work with that I'm thinking about, and it's because the approach that she was used to before would be, this is what you can earn. Like, let's just come out of this as quickly as possible. And what's happening now, and I've been with her for almost three years, is that when something doesn't go according to plan, she goes, all right, oh, well. That, oh, well, took time. And that took building, and it took effort from her trust, and the parents trusting in the process itself. I'm there to support, and I'm there to guide, and I'm going, Okay, let's shut down all the lights, let's remove any type of extraneous stimuli. I know what helps I have these, like really cool things, they're called nuggets. They're just giant cushions. And sometimes we build little homes for ourselves. And we go in there I go in there with them. So it's not like, let's just shut out everything else. And I'm just gonna sit here with you, and then the comments that I've heard from other kids

Guy Stephens: 51:29

Sitting with them can mean so much.

Polina Shkadron: 51:30

Yes, it's sitting with, and then at the end, the comments that I've heard is, I really like it here. And I go, great. I like it here with you, too. And then it's like, alright, and we just sit in silence. Because that's what's helpful. And, you're right, there was a comment about getting a drink of water. I always have my water bottle in all my sessions. Because that's the modeling piece if something is getting really frustrating and really overwhelming. I'll sit back, and I'll come and take my water bottle, and I'm going, just give me one sec. Or when you talked about kids understanding their own, internal sensations. I wound up walking into one of the therapy rooms, and I opened up a window. And one of the kids who I've been with, he's been with me for a while. He goes, Oh, were you feeling kind of hot? I was like, wow. Yeah, I was. That's me getting dysregulated. So I said, you know, you're right. Like, my body was feeling kind of hot, and to help it, I decided to open the window. And I always go, does that work for you? And he's like, yep, that works for me.

Guy Stephens: 52:44

Yeah. Okay. Couple more comments. Here we have Devona saying, "Yes, teaching and through play and relationship." Cass says, and I think it's an important point here, "I am an autistic adult, and hearing professionals say that they're working on resilience intentionally, makes me deeply uncomfortable. Because autistic people experience resilience-building encounters constantly." And I think when I read this, and I don't want to get this wrong, Cass, you can tell me if I do. But one of the things I think that we sometimes see, and I'm sure you probably have as well, and I hate to say this, but people intentionally try to put somebody in a position where they're distressed. I mean, I've even heard behavioral folks going into classrooms saying, Well, let me show you what happens when you wind them up. And literally causing kids to be distressed. And what I'm hearing, I think, from what you're talking about, is you're not talking about intentionally creating situations that you know, that they will need to be able to resilience, you're talking through play through normal things, that there are things that emerge that are opportunities. Am I hearing that right? And can you address that a little more tonight, and I hear I absolutely hear the concern there from Cass because I think that's something specifically, I mean, when we look at some of the models of therapy, specifically around autism, and we look at ABA, and we look at compliance-based approaches, there's a lot that is not mindful of the individual's experience. So I think anytime there's like, Oh, you're doing this intentionally. Well, no. But anyway, let me let you address that.

Polina Shkadron: 54:28

And I've heard ABA also used with ADHD, like it's rearing in a few areas. And I've heard the comment and actually written into IEPs planned ignoring, and I go, Hold on, what is going on? So that would be quite traumatic, right? Where it's like, I'm having a tough time, and they're planning to ignore me instead of figuring out how to help, and I'm coming from the viewpoint of support really depends. There's no black-and-white answer where, in this situation, this is the only thing you can do. And in a situation like, this is the only approach, it's so important to figure out, like, what works for each child and what works for each family. And it still comes back to that, building relationships and building trust. And that's really where we start. Right? If we have that trusting relationship, and when we have that trusting relationship, and you're having a really hard moment, I'm still here. Like, regardless of what it is, I'm still here, and then we both come out the other side going, Oh, my gosh, that was tough. Right? Like, that was really hard back there.

Guy Stephens: 56:04

Right. Yeah. And I think even making that realization. We've got a lot of people here that are probably listening today, that I would say, are kind of in the choir here in terms of having a lot of the same concerns and passion around the things that are being done that are not working for kids. But, so often, I think people frame things, as kids intentionally doing things. And of course, when you really get into the science, now that's available, we know that not all behavior is intentional. We know that our brains are not fully developed until at least 25 or 30 years old, but yet, you can find people looking through a certain lens that will say, Oh, gee, this child was manipulating. I'm not a big proponent of the traditional approach and functions of behavior, which I think often are not taking into account bottom-up, or nervous system-driven behavior. And there's this tendency to look at rather than saying, Hey, this is a kid who is having a hard time, people saying, this kid has given me a hard time. And there's just simply not the truth. I mean, this is somebody's having a hard time and, and kids need our help. I think Cass also mentioned, modeling, and those are, of course, things you can do, I guess, in the, at the moment when you're doing something like play therapy, and that happens, the modeling opportunity might be over at that point. But I'm sure that modeling is part of what you do. Especially when you begin working and building relationships, there are probably a few parallel things happening at first, as trust is being built, and all these things are happening. But I couldn't agree with you more on ignoring planning the whole idea behind planned ignoring. Really, these are very often moments where an individual needs connection more than any other time. And yet the response is ignoring, and we had a comment here, just as bad as rewards and consequences, I would say perhaps even worse. I think that when you take away that human connection, the damage that can be done there is so profound,

Polina Shkadron: 58:23

Because then you're leaving the child to handle things on their own when they clearly can't, because, as you said, if they could, they would. And they're in this moment, they clearly cannot. So it is when they need us the most, then it is like goes back to how we show up and how we remain in that moment with them.

Guy Stephens: 58:45

Right. And, all these things that are true of children are true of anyone, right? I mean, we all have bad days and need to co-regulate, we all can become dysregulated at times. And in those moments, I always say this when I talked about this, but, when we're dysregulated, we say, and we do things that we later regret, because our thinking brain is not online at that moment in time, so it's difficult. I see a follow-up up here from Cass, and just as my comment was also regarding the common withdrawal or refusal of accommodations, and co-regulation due to helping the child build resilience. Yeah. And I hear you, and I'm not at all a supporter of intentionally removing accommodations or that they have to toughen up. It's a process. So, tell me more about some of the other things that you do. So one of the things that I remember talking to you about, at the time was feeding. And, you know, this came up for me. We focus on a lot of things, and as I've said kind of broadly, it's often the many things that are done to people under the umbrella of behavior. One of the things that came to my attention was children actually being restrained and force-fed. And I had a colleague that had been doing research and doing some writing on that subject area. And some of this was happening through ABA providers, which, of course, aren't necessarily specialized in that area. And it was kind of disturbing to hear that some of these things were happening. But you've got some background in that area as well. Can you tell us a little bit about your work?

Polina Shkadron: 1:00:43

Sure. So I look at mealtime as a gathering. And that's what we are really working on, like figuring out how we can bring that back, right? Because the families that come, mealtime is one of the most stressful experiences that they've had or continue to have. And it could be for a variety of reasons. And when we focus on what the purpose is of the meal, and why I pose that as a question. The parents are always saying, well, I never thought about it in that way. And we forgot the reason that we come together anyway. Like, whether it's, everybody's on their phones, or like kids are eating in front of iPads, because that's just the way to get them to eat. Right. And one of the things I say is that your child isn't eating for you, they're eating for themselves. So I'm not here to get your child to eat for you. And they're also not eating for me like they're eating for themselves. And it's that recognition that part of the work that I do, I've heard with behavioral approaches where it's, well, they'll get a preferred food, if they have three bites of this non-preferred, and I go, Okay, I'm gonna drop you in a foreign country, and something you've never seen before, that has, scales, I'm gonna go, you eat that. And once you eat it, I'll give you a cookie. Right? Like, you're already, and it goes back to the nervous system, right? Like flooded such an alarm state. And then what happens is your appetite drops anyway. Because your body doesn't need to digest anything. So your digestive system goes offline. And then all of a sudden, it's, well, I'm not hungry anymore. Because you're not. You're in this highly stressful situation where somebody's telling you, in order to get that really good thing, you have to eat this really bad thing,

Guy Stephens: 1:02:54

Because if we're dysregulated digestion is inhibited. So yeah, I never thought about that before. But that's really interesting.

Polina Shkadron: 1:03:01

So it goes back to individual profiles, right? And the other mindset is, how do we get kids really comfortable around different foods? Because if we don't show it to them, they won't know what it is. And there's no such thing, and I say it all the time, there's no such thing as this is kid food. This is adult food, like, food is just food. There are kid menus that exist in restaurants, but there's no such thing because if you look at a kid's menu, I wouldn't eat any of it. Like, why would you serve it to a child? I referred to it as the beige diet, everything on that kid's menu is beige.

Guy Stephens: 1:03:48

Chicken Nuggets? Yeah. French fries,

Polina Shkadron: 1:03:51

mac and cheese, plain pasta. It's just all beige.

Guy Stephens: 1:03:57

My daughter was a beige eater for many years. And it's funny because my son was always really adventuresome when he was very young, like his favorite, and just because we would try a lot of different things. And they were there and available. But he was into, like, Maryland crab dip and fried oysters. The kid at seven years old was a really expensive dinner date. And my daughter was for a long time, and she's gotten much more adventurous. I mean, there are families that have real difficulty around feeding, and of course, I would assume the more stress that's created by the situation, the more reluctant somebody may be, that's already having difficulty. So I'm sure that's a really difficult position.

Polina Shkadron: 1:04:43

It is, and somebody just made a comment about are fed. Like, I love working with kids with our fed because it's so complex, and they are it's like such amazing and sensitive kids. And are fed is also there's a mindset piece with are fed because there's an anxiety component. I love that comment. And it goes back to regulation, right, like all roads lead back to regulation and figuring out how do you co-regulate at the table? And sometimes it's bringing up comments like, you're so right, right now, food is hard. There's a three-and-a-half-year-old who's new to the practice, and we made potatoes with him. And he goes, these potatoes are too hard. And we go, yeah, and there's never an expectation that whatever we make, there's no such thing as you have to touch it, or you have to lick it. I don't even know where that came from. There's never I have to, it's just all exploratory. And again, yes, it depends on the age, and yet, it still goes back to regulation, because when you see a child start to get dysregulated during the meal, you know that this has just become too tough. Like, we have to pull back. And, it goes back to we're not building resilience with food, right? It's like, you're starting to notice moments of dysregulation, where if the child's already getting a little bit more hesitant and you go, you know what, it looks like this is getting really hard, let me help you out. And, sometimes, you have to just push things off to the side and move on to a different conversation. And then all of a sudden, and it's not all of a sudden, you feel the ease. Like there's just this sigh of relief and you hear it. You hear that, you hear the sigh of relief from the child, and like their body changes, and they want to stay at the table, whether they're serving mom or they're serving me because when we have a mealtime experience, I tell parents to come hungry. Because everybody's eating, it doesn't mean the child has to, but we all are because that's where the modeling comes in. Right? That doesn't mean that we have to like everything. And that's where the relationship building comes in. Like such a huge relationship building, and especially for older kids who have had, unfortunately, other experiences, and they come in really hesitant. The first thing I tell them is I will never tell you that you have to have something. You will never feel that you must have something because that's not how your relationship with food works. Like we're going to be learning, and there are some days that you're going to be really curious and other days that you're going to want to pull back. It's all good. And it goes back to my relationship with you is not contingent on whether or not you eat. It goes back to, and we haven't touched on this yet. We can it goes back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like safety comes first.

Guy Stephens: 1:08:16

So thinking about Cass' situation. You know, of course, the recommendation was ABA. And you know, I can't say I know, everything in the world to know about it. But I can say that I've heard some pretty bad stories about the non-preferred and preferred foods. Force-feeding kids, and a lot of things that are alarming to me. And I can only think of the kinds of potential for eating disorders a child might have, as they grow. But if you look at that situation, where she said, like, here it is intensive ABA, that's what we recommend. And, of course, you offer this as a service, but is there something else you would point a parent to, like somebody that just was watching this? Is there a book, is there ideology? Are there any other resources you might point people to? To explore options other than ABA-based approaches?

Polina Shkadron: 1:09:16

Yep. So there's the get permission Institute. It's about a permissive relationship when it comes to food. I think that's a really great starting point. That's where I would go because it actually builds on that. Part of the reason that I mentioned Maslow's hierarchy is because there's one for food also. And with Maslow's hierarchy, right at the tippy top, it's self-actualization. And for kids who struggle with food, the tippy top is a new food that's now in their repertoire. Right, like that's at the very top. So how do we get there? Bottom-up, we build safety, we build understanding, we have like, they're called from Marsha John Klein, she calls it like food rehearsals where this is a rehearsal, the food is showing up. And maybe it's the star of the show. And when the child comes to the table, there's always something that they're comfortable with. Because imagine coming to the table, looking at things that are at the table and saying, there's nothing here for me. I can't have any of this. And then that gets you to now, I don't feel good. And now I don't feel good about myself. I don't feel good about. And it goes back to like make a good choice about what you're eating. Like what does that mean, Right. They fall into this trap of healthy versus unhealthy, right? Or like things that are good for you versus things that aren't or like earning dessert. Right, like, not something that we earn. And I've had to say that I was like, well, actually, we don't work for food here. It just comes.

Guy Stephens: 1:11:17

Right, That's great. Another point that Cass brought up, which I think is great intersectional point, is she brought up this is where high tech robust AAC has been so helpful in our household building shared meaningful sensory vocabulary around food plus increased felt safety due to increased ability to communicate. Just kind of curious, in your work, both through, well, through all of your work, how does AAC tie into your work? And I mean, obviously, the ability to have it. There are so many individuals who are non-speaking or have limited speaking ability, who are chronically, underestimated and undervalued. You know, people have very low expectations. Of course, that feeds into the problems that we were talking about before with self-worth, and all of that, how does AAC factor into the work that you do professionally?

Polina Shkadron: 1:12:17

So I am very happy to say, I'm not an expert in AAC, you'd have to find somebody who really specializes in augmentative communication, to then work hand in hand with, let's say, the language that I would provide and the therapeutic techniques that I would provide. And it's really great that this family has found their own route. And I'm very comfortable to say that I don't specialize in that area. So I'm here working on how do we establish a good relationship. I also talk to kids and families about the power of yet, right? Where like, this is gross. I go, Oh, you don't know it yet. Yeah, got it. Like, this food is new, you don't like, you're not really sure about it just yet. Okay, it'll stay here, right? Or,my favorite, I don't eat that. I don't like that. That's not my food, like, my food is over here. And your food is over there. And it's breaking that divide of my food versus your food. So it becomes our right like, we are having dinner together. And it's, it's something so interesting that I do a six-week program on meals. It's called the path to mealtime freedom for our families. And we start, and it's really like me, helping them work and walking them through my entire process. And what the families that we had a cohort just finish, what the families came away from was one of them was the concept of a gathering and really enjoying, one of the dads had said, we're having a great time. I don't remember the last time we put the devices down, there's no need for them. We're actually talking, and I go, how great is that? And then within those conversations, that's when, in the back of your mind, if you're thinking, alright, how do I introduce something new to the table? It comes up because it's like play, right? It's a natural progression. And then we go into breaking the divide between this is my food and this is your food, because the important part of that is, then you finally get kids saying, Oh, what are we having for dinner? Instead of what are you going to make for me? It becomes more of a we process. What are we having for dinner tonight? And then they know, and they trust that like whatever they feel safe with, that food is going to be there. And then there's this new rehearsal of something new that shows up. And then maybe it shows up again in a few days, just so that there's comfort in Oh, this new thing isn't as scary as it used to be. Now I'm getting really curious about it. Like, I wonder what would happen if I, and this is like all internal for the child, like, I wonder what would happen if I have some? Oh, this is interesting. And then I tell the parents to party on the inside. Right? Because, you want to say, oh my gosh, you tried this. It was so great. And then what happens if the next day they can't try it. Does that mean that they're not getting the same response?

Guy Stephens: 1:15:44

their acceptance and Love is not conditional upon it

Polina Shkadron: 1:15:47

Exactly. Then I say that the response is, you respond as if it's been happening forever. You go, Oh, cool. You had a piece of salmon. Alright, sounds good to me. And then like, have a party on the inside? Or like, send me an email, and then we'll rejoice in it together.

Guy Stephens: 1:16:05

I feel like that needs to be a t-shirt. You have a party on the inside. That's great. Well, listen, we have gotten to about our time, and I try to stick to our schedule here. So we are at our time, but I just wanted to see, and the time always goes by so quickly, right? I think an hour and 45 minutes? And is there anything else that you would like to share? As we kind of close things out today? Any other kind of final thoughts or ideas that you'd like to share with our audience today?

Polina Shkadron: 1:16:39

I think it goes back to safety and relationships. And that's, really, where we want to build from. And understanding each child's unique perspective, and that's where we should live.

Guy Stephens: 1:16:58

Safety and connection, I mean, there's so much potential, once you get there. Well, listen, it's been really great having this conversation with you. And I hope you had as much fun as I did. I always have a lot of fun having these conversations. And I think we have had a very engaged audience that was here for most of the show here. I have other people that were here from the beginning to the end. So certainly a lot of interest. We could probably have you back just to dive in on the feeding a little bit.

Polina Shkadron: 1:17:27

I can.

Guy Stephens: 1:17:30

Of course, you do talks, and you do training as well. We've shared a link to your website there so people can touch base with you if they have any further questions or want to touch base. And it looks like Courtney has just shared that up as well on our screen. So thank you again for spending some time with us today. And I want to thank our audience who has been here with us watching live, and if you're watching after the fact, I hope you enjoyed it as well. And again, you have all the contact information. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions or want to learn more about training or any of that. So with that, I will say goodbye to our audience. If you want to hang around for one second, I'll give you your final goodbye as well. Thank you, everybody, for joining us today, and we'll see you again next time. Bye bye