Join us for “An interview with Brian Dalla Mura: A special educator’s journey to reduce and eliminate restraint and seclusion.”
Brian is a special education teacher in Vermont. He holds a master’s degree in special education from Arizona State University. He has experience teaching students with emotional disabilities in kindergarten through high school. Brian began advocating for stronger and safer restraint and seclusion policies after witnessing prone restraints in his local school district where he worked, and his child attends. Brian contacted state representatives and successfully encouraged them to introduce a bill to govern the use of restraint and seclusion on a state-wide level.
Join us for “An interview with Brian Dalla Mura: A special educator’s journey to reduce and eliminate restraint and seclusion.”
Brian is a special education teacher in Vermont. He holds a master’s degree in special education from Arizona State University. He has experience teaching students with emotional disabilities in kindergarten through high school. Brian began advocating for stronger and safer restraint and seclusion policies after witnessing prone restraints in his local school district where he worked, and his child attends. Brian contacted state representatives and successfully encouraged them to introduce a bill to govern the use of restraint and seclusion on a state-wide level.
Well hello and welcome back to the alliance against seclusion restraint live. I'm Guy Stephens, the founder and executive director of the alliance against seclusion restraint. Really happy to have you here today. If you notice, for our regular watchers, I'm not where I usually am. And you are absolutely right. In fact, I'm not where I usually am. I'm not when I usually am either, at least in terms of how things go for me, I'm actually in California right now. So rather than being 330, Eastern Time, it is 1230. Pacific time for me. But I went to California on Friday, last week to go to the Council of parents attorneys, advocates concert, a concert conference, and had been here since then, and it'll be here for a few more days. But we are still coming at you with our normal live event. Of course, those of you that aren't familiar with the Alliance, our mission is really about educating people to move away from a lot of the punitive approaches are causing a lot of harm to kids in schools, we're talking about restraint, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, corporal punishment, we're talking about all the things that are often done to kids, very often in the name of behavior very often based on really outdated and inappropriate ways of working with kids that need our help. We have a vision about seeing safer schools for students, teachers and staff. And I'll also say, you know, the Alliance since we started about four years ago, a lot of that has really grown and changed. You know, we don't want to see things like restraint, seclusion happening anywhere, whether it's school, whether it's a residential facility, whether it's mental health facilities like acute psychiatric care, elder care, whatever it may be, you know, we don't want to see these things happening, there are far better ways of supporting people. So as always, very excited to have our guest here with us today, I've got Brian dolmar, who is a special educator joining us for a really interesting discussion. Brian is an amazing educator in Vermont, that has actually been fighting in Vermont to end the use of prone restraint and seclusion. So it'll be really great to have a perspective of somebody that's coming from a different angle of this, we often talk to parents and professionals. And it's always great to have an educator who's on the same journey as we are, I do want to remind you, as always, this session is being recorded. So if you're not able to watch the whole thing now and I see a number of people jumping on live, it will be available to watch on YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn. And you can also download it after the fact is on audio podcast. So if you'd like to listen, maybe on the road while you're driving somewhere, the audio podcast is available on Spotify, iTunes, any of your favorite podcasting platforms. So with all of that, let me get straight to our guest here. And but before I do, I just want to ask our audience, if you are watching live right now. Let us know who you are and where you're from. Always love to see where people are joining us from, we tend to have a really international audience, people from Canada, Australia, United Kingdom, a lot of people here in the United States as well. So tell us who you are, where you're from. If you want to tell us more, tell us why you're interested in this. So with that, let me go ahead and bring Brian up to join us for the discussion here. Hey, Brian, how are you? Good. All right. Absolutely. Well, let me give a little bit of background on you. Of course, I mentioned that you're a special education teacher in Vermont, and that you hold a Master's degree in special education from Arizona State University, and that you had experience teaching students with emotional disabilities. In kindergarten through high school. You also of course, began advocating for stronger and safer policies around restraint, seclusion, after witnessing prone restraint in your local school district, where you were working and where your child attended. And you begin to really, you began to try to figure out how you could successfully bring about change, you began working with the Board of Education, contacted state representatives, encouraging them to pass legislation to govern the use of restraint seclusion on a statewide level. And you've been doing a tremendous amount of work. I had the privilege of meeting you, not quite a year ago, but I guess it was probably in I want to say April or May of of last year, as you were beginning to do this work and, you know, beginning to really make a positive difference there in Vermont. So Brian, it's great to have you and really excited to hear what you have to share with us today.
Brian Dalla Mura:Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Guy Stephens:Absolutely. And I'll just share a couple of the folks that have joined us we already have somebody joining us from Illinois, we have Michelle, from Nebraska. All right. And it looks like Stephanie from California good. And again, if you're joining in, tell us who you are and where you're from. I have somebody here from Teresa. From South Dakota. Oh, and somebody that was able to attend my talk at COPPA, not the comp, not the comp, what did I say? Not the concert, the conference, I was getting my words kind of twisted this morning. Great to see you on, have sandy here from Indiana. Somebody else here from New Jersey. And someone from Kent, Washington. And we've got some things happening there as well. As well as New York, there's a lot of things actually happening. Brian, before we got home, we were talking about this about how there's a lot of activity around the country right now, in terms of restraint, seclusion. And one of the reasons I really wanted to talk to you was that you are one of those people who has been a catalyst for bringing about change. And, you know, these things don't just happen if no one stands up and wants to do something bring about change. So we're gonna dive into that. But I want to begin with a little bit of your background and your, you know, history. So tell us, you know, I mean, why did you get into education? And even more specifically, why special education?
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah, so I, you know, just early on, when I was going to college, I ended up taking an education course, where I had to do some, like practicum. It wasn't really anything I thought I'd be interested in. But when I got on the school, I was like, oh, you know what, I actually really liked this. And then I just chose the major of elementary education. And actually chose a dual major, it was a special ed, and elementary ed major. And really, I didn't know anything about special ed at the time. But I it was in 2009, when things weren't so great. And I figured, okay, well, there should be some jobs available. In that program ended up getting scrapped. And I just went for elementary ed and, but I really, then I really, like started becoming interested in and wanted to pursue the special ed. So went to Arizona State, got my Master's in special ed after that, where I actually student taught at a self contained school for students with emotional disabilities. And that's really how I did that was a random placement. And that's really then I learned, you know, that little portion of special ed. And that's what I knew. So I stuck with it. Knew I didn't know much, struggled through it. Really learn from the people around me, restraint. Seclusion was a big part of that job, from student teaching to my first jobs out of college. And, you know, I accepted it as kind of a necessary part of the job. I never liked it. In fact, it was always the part of the job I hated the most. But like many other people, I didn't know what else to do. And so, you know, thankfully, I worked in a in a large school system, where there were a lot of people with more experience than I did that I had. So I was able to learn from them and learn some better ways. And I remember one of my earliest, you know, little bits of advocacy was I was working for a school district that had seclusion rooms, and all of the self contained special ed classrooms. And that, you know, I could do the restraint. The seclusion was just really sickening to me. That's the only thing I could say. word to describe. It was sickening. And seeing kids locked in the closet just pounding on the door, screaming, kicking the door, banging the head against the wall that tried to draw you in. Strip stripping their clothes off peeing in the corner. I just I couldn't handle it. And so I remember going to the principal and I was like, I can't do this, like I just can't do it. And so I advocated to remove the door, at least on my classroom and, you know, make it a more therapeutic space with beanbags and art on the wall from the students and, you know, a place where they can just self select and go whenever they needed. And the principal told me no. My you know, I don't take no well, which I think has served me well and the advocacy. So I went to the director, where I had support, and we had a meeting and I got my way. Eventually, the door was removed and I transformed the room to my vision. And I realized no kid would go in there was like a no, what's the problem? Like they have their artwork up. It's decorated the way they wanted it. They have beanbags. Everything's nice. Not a single kid would step in that room. Now what what grade level was this? This was middle school? No, it was. I want to say this was fourth and fifth graders.
Guy Stephens:Okay. Okay. So kids that may have already had experiences going into a room like that, even though the door was off, right.
Brian Dalla Mura:I put them in there. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, they are 100% experienced it. And unfortunately, I was the one who did that. And they wouldn't go in there even when the room was transformed. And then I started getting new students in the classroom, you know. And they would go in there. And that was a profound moment for me where I was like, wow, this is traumatizing. You know, the room was completely different, didn't even have a door. Nobody was forcing them in there. Nobody was blocking them. And then they still wouldn't go in. But yet the students who had never been in that room prior would use it. And that was the eye opening moment for me that restraint, seclusion don't work. And that is very traumatizing.
Guy Stephens:And assumably, you know, you had advocated for that change in your classroom? So reasonably, there were other classrooms that were still using seclusion. Yes. Yeah. Gotcha. And what what state were you and at that point, that was Arizona, was in Arizona. Okay, gotcha. So, what happened, you know, when you got that, you know, permission, and then you went forward with this idea. And then you realize the impact and, you know, did what you did? What was the response from other educators? So, so you essentially decided, I'm not going to do this, I'm not going to seclude kids. And here's what I'm going to do. And then of course, through that process of saying, Okay, well, we're just gonna turn this into a nice room realize, Oh, gee, these kids that had had that previous experience, were so traumatized, they didn't want to go near this room. How did others respond to you doing this? I mean, how did your peers respond to this idea in the first place of you wanting to make this change? And then once you did it?
Brian Dalla Mura:You know, I think the overall response from educators was was positive. You know, I don't recall, you know, what was happening in the other rooms, to be honest. But it was, you know, like I said, I was new, and I was the most inexperienced. So, you know, I was probably using it more than anybody else, to be honest. And I think, you know, I would hear stories from the, you know, the past, you know, those more experienced teachers, oh, when I was, you know, teaching back in the 80s, or 90s, you know, we, you know, we had to build our own seclusion rooms and out of plywood and two by fours. But, you know, I think they had enough experience, and I really do think that's, it was probably those other educators, for the most part that kind of helped me understand that. I didn't need to use it. And I, it's just in my personality to be the type that's like, alright, if I'm not going to use it, but let's get rid of the door, let's advocate for change. Wasn't I mean, at that point in my career? I can't say I made any widespread changes. Right.
Guy Stephens:So So how long were you teaching Arizona, taught there for about five years, about five years moving to Vermont. And in that time, in learning from other educators you were working with, in relay kind of probably, at that point, kind of coming into your own as an educator as well. What were you because we often hear when people are talking about ending the use of isolation and seclusion, you often hear, Well, you know, what, what will we do instead? What did you begin to learn? And how did you begin to handle situations that even previously, you know, you were using seclusion for?
Brian Dalla Mura:Time and space, really. And that's what I created, you know, that's why I took the door off and made it a more comfortable space, a place for kids to take space and take some time. Right. And, and that, I think comes natural to well, doesn't come natural, everybody, but you know, if you think about yourself, like if you're upset or you're stressed, you're angry, you're having strong emotions, though, you know, I would always try to put myself in those shoes, right? Like, I don't necessarily want somebody talking me through it at the moment. I don't want to be around a lot of people, I don't want people looking at me. And I think a skill that we use as adults is remove yourself from the situation. So, you know, that's what I did differently was I allowed students to remove themselves from the situation. You know, once Yeah, and I didn't know the science behind it at the time, but I knew like, Okay, this is this is what I do as a responsible adult.
Guy Stephens:And isn't it kind of amazing though, that if we use the same tool where we might use for another adult, and what we might need in a situation and apply that to a child, it can be a step in the right direction. You know, nobody wants to be told to calm down. Nobody wants to be told, well, until you're calm for three minutes, you know, you're not going to have this happened, you know, whatever it may be. Nobody wants to hear all the things that are being taken away from them when they're already dysregulated. Yet, that's very often what we do to kids, right?
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I mean, you know, it's like, thinking about things yourself, right? Like, whatever it was here. Yeah. Mm, if you're angry, not a great time to talk about something.
Guy Stephens:That's right. That's right. And of course, I know, You've been on this journey a bit further, since you started there in Arizona, and begin to understand kind of the, the brain science piece behind it. But you know, even just the experience piece of it tells you, you know, when somebody's having a hard time, now's not the time to put demands on them, now's not the time to put conditions on them. This is a time where they need some time and space, you know, where they need to be able to kind of begin to regulate where they need that help of, you know, a regulated adult to help them but very often, that's the last time thing they get when they're having a difficult time.
Brian Dalla Mura:Yep. Yeah, and I think, you know, it's talking about time and space to, you know, in thinking about, you know, in CO regulation, right, we know, a lot of these kids don't have the skill yet to self regulate, so they need co regulation. And that's where I think it takes more skill as an educator of knowing what exactly, co regulation is, you know, co regulation isn't going through a script and talking at them or talking to them, sometimes it is just giving them time and space and letting you know, for some students, it's, Hey, I'm over here, in the other corner, well away from you, I'm here if you need me. And modeling that, you know, it's sometimes less is more with with CO regulation at the very early stages, and some other students do need you to, you know, reflect feelings or validate feelings in some don't. And I think, you know, being responsive to each individual, is where kind of experience and skill come into place.
Guy Stephens:So you're, you're in Arizona teaching for about five years, you've said, yep. And you eventually move, and where do you go from there.
Brian Dalla Mura:So this is where it gets interesting. This is where. So, in Arizona, I had always taught and self contained programs. And my family and I decided to move To Vermont, where self contained programs just are extremely rare in public schools. Vermont, pushes inclusion, they talk a lot about inclusion. But what I will say about Vermont is since no schools really have special ed classrooms or self contained programs, what ends up happening is they go across town, to a, you know, a non public school run by a mental health agency. So it was, you know, I didn't know what I was gonna do, right. I was like, I've never taught in like a real like inclusion setting before. So I found I found a district that had a self contained program. And I applied, got the job. Turns out, they don't use restraint or seclusion at all in the program. So I was like, okay, like, wow, cool. Like, I was really excited about that. But I was also really nervous because I was like, you know, up until that point, I'd always been using restraint. And so I was like, you know, what do I do? And that is where I really learned, right? So that tool was taken away from me. I don't call it a tool, but that the ability to use restraint was just cold turkey taken away from me. Thinkorswim for me, so, you know, I learned quickly from the people working in the school, I had some really good colleagues that trained me, I had some really good models, some experienced teachers who had been here for 1520 years doing it, and kind of showed me the way but I have to say that not having the ability forced me really, to reflect on my own practice significantly and I had to develop the skills. Were also I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have been able to teach. So the best thing that ever happened to me in my professional career.
Guy Stephens:So when you were in a situation where not only a Um, you know, when you began teaching, it was kind of the approach that you were given. This is what you do when you're having, you know, these kinds of situations arise. And of course, you know, I don't recall off the top of my head, what the legislation in Arizona says. But you know, as you know, the the federal guidance is pretty strong in terms of when somebody might use a physical restraint or seclusion. And the federal guidance has long said it should be a life threatening situation. But what we often find is that in many settings, that's not the criteria at all. In fact, I would say that the majority of restraint, seclusion typically happens for non life threatening situations, for non compliance, this respect minor behaviors, you know, a lot of other things. But when you're a brand new teacher, and you're coming into this, this is what you're being told to do. That's what you do. However, you know, as you mentioned, you know, suddenly you're in an environment where you can't do that anymore. What what we often see happens is that people are in that are in that former setting, where it's what's being done, can't imagine there's another way. So if you think it's the only way, it's the only thing that you can possibly do, in those situations, that become really difficult. But now here, you've got gone in this place, and you've learned there a better way. So what were they doing differently there? What were they doing to avoid getting into crisis situations that would escalate? undoubtably into a restraint? Or seclusion?
Brian Dalla Mura:Well, I think a lot of it's common sense, right? You know, first, you know, not focusing on compliance to the point where you escalate a situation that unnecessarily that's the first thing. And how do you do that, you know, it's, it's being responsive to emotions, it's being responsive to needs in, in real time. And that's, that's a hard thing to teach. And then, you know, next is, you know, when, when, when students would get aggressive comments and things like backing up moving away, right? You know, because in my career, everywhere I've ever taught, it's, it's mostly, it's very rare to have a student attack you, or come at you or continue to attack you. i What I will say is common is in all elementary schools across the country is when you have a young child, especially who's upset or stressed, and in that fight flight or freeze mode, you know, you might get kicked in the shin, or you might get a SWAT, you back up, it's usually done, it's done. It's pretty rare that they'll come at you. And so what I quickly learned was, wow, you know, these students are actually acting defensively, I'm the threat. So when I'm in their space, I get kicked in the shin or pushed or slapped because I am viewed as a threat, and they're trying to keep me away. So why wouldn't I stay away? Right. And so that's what I learned to do differently. And I think it takes a paradigm shift, and it takes a, it takes a whole different mindset. And it's really not that complicated. And I think once you start doing that, and once you start seeing that, and once you start seeing it from the students perspective, it becomes a lot easier. But those little I think those little moments of, you know, if, if a child is upset, and they kick you in the shin, and you back up, not only are you You know, you're ending that violence or that aggression. I really think that you're building trust with that student to, you know, I'm not a threat. I'm here to help you, you know, make yourself small, make yourself non threatening, right, right, right. Absolutely. That in itself turns into trust, right, and you turn into a safe person, and then you really eliminate those situations altogether in the future. And I don't want to be like oversimplifying it. But in my mind, if we step back and really think about it is pretty simple.
Guy Stephens:And would you say I've been I've long felt that, you know, the mindset is one of the most important elements here. And today I talk often about the mindset and a little bit of brain science, is it not meaning that you get a lot of brain science but if you understand how a child's brain and nervous system are wired, if you understand as you identified a moment ago, that's a child that doesn't feel safe. That's a child. You know, our bodies are wired for survival, right? Our nervous system, if we don't feel safe, we'll fight or flight. And you know, very often, you know, when you're talking about a, you know, a pre K, kindergarten, first grade, second grade 678 year old, that doesn't feel safe and is acting out. This is not a life threatening situation. You know, this is not a situation where you know that this 45 pound child is going to cause you great harm. But very often the mindset is all about compliance and control. And that compliance and control mindset challenges push us and often escalate situations, would you would you agree with that?
Brian Dalla Mura:100%? You know, it's something I look at guys. Why don't we see restraint? seclusion? Many other places? Right? If you really think about it, where do we see seclusion rooms? You see them in hospitals, you see them and mental health places, and you see them in schools, you know, in restraint? Where do we see restraint? We don't see restraints happening. I mean, I'm sure they do. But, you know, we don't see them. At summer camps. We don't see them in the grocery store. I don't see them in the mall. Right. And these are the same kids that are attending public school. Right. And, you know, when I worked in my own community, I don't anymore, but when I worked in my own community, you know, I would see these kids were being restrained and secluded at school every single day, which we'll get to, I'm sure later on. And then I'd see these same kids at soccer camp with my son, or you know, seeing them at the Rec camp. And they're playing and having a great time. And I'm thinking to myself, Why can't why? That's all I can say is yeah, what are schools doing wrong? Why isn't this happening anywhere else?
Guy Stephens:Well, the counter argument would of course, be about nonpreferred task, right? But but we can dig deeper and say, we can find entire schools that don't use seclusion or don't use restraint, that are serving the same children, yet they're not meaning to do these things. So
Brian Dalla Mura:you know, that I mean, I'm a teacher, and I'm gonna say this guy, right? What means? Your your education isn't engaging enough?
Guy Stephens:Yeah, well, that means
Brian Dalla Mura:it's, it's, you're you're looking for compliance, and your education isn't engaging. Right. Right. So I would say that's the counter argument, when you say, nonpreferred, you know, we have to place demands on kids. Right? Well, right place engaging demands on them. That's right.
Guy Stephens:No, I agree with you. I agree with you. I mean, that's really going upstream. And I agree. And, you know, I mean, some of that, is probably a much larger systemic issue, in terms of, you know, the way our education system has evolved in the priorities or education system. But even as an individual educator, you have the ability to, to create the more engaging point lesson plans, you have the ability to, you know, really spark interest and get kids, you know, when we are focused on compliance making people do things, you know, compliance is never a good approach, you know, we're always talking about connection and compassion. But, you know, compliance based approaches means you might get a short term, when you might with compliance, get somebody to do what you want in that moment. But that doesn't mean that they currently do engage, or they're going to learn the skills they need, or they're going to be able to, you know, use intrinsic motivation in the future. Compliance is not the way but it very often is the way when it comes to our education systems. So, so let's, let's go a little bit further. So you go from Arizona now to this school, that you're working in a segregated floor program. And there you're working in an environment where there's no restraint, seclusion, you learn a great deal there. And then you go, where where do you go from there?
Brian Dalla Mura:So then I go to it. And I go to the hardwood unified Union School District in Vermont, which is, which I'll name them, and that is what sparked the legislation. And we'll further down in this conversation, we'll get there. But so I go there and I'm thinking, okay, and I was I was ready to move out of kind of teaching and I wanted to work in kind of a larger capacity school wide and so I was hired as what they called the behavior support educator.
Guy Stephens:And then that sounds like a great move. I've been having somebody come into your school that has made that shift in terms of behavior. That's moved away from compliance and control that's connecting with kids. That's learning how to, you know, avoid escalations. I mean, that sounds like a great win for the district. So you're coming into this district, bringing what you've now learned kind of from the beginning of your journey on. So what happens?
Brian Dalla Mura:So I get there, um, let me preface this with you know, I put on my resume that, you know, back in Arizona, I advocated for the removal of seclusion rooms, right. So, it, you know, I talked about therapeutic approaches, like, I'm not throwing therapeutic approaches as a buzzword out there. I'm talking therapeutic approaches, right?
Guy Stephens:Because, of course, here in this world, we hear things like therapeutic restraints, which of course, yes, causes me a lot of frustration. But
Brian Dalla Mura:yeah, it bothers me. And so, you know, I was very upfront in my interview as a front of my application, my resume all that I get there. And within the first couple of weeks, I'm noticing they have this protocol, clear the halls, which means everybody needs to go in their classrooms, you can't go in the hallways, you know, you conduct business as usual, but nobody's allowed in the hallways. And during those clear Ben and I 99.9% of those clear the halls were for behavior. And anytime you heard that clear the hall it was because somebody was going to be restrained and then escorted to the seclusion room. And this was every day, I'm talking two or three cleared halls a day, at least, at the very least, one restraint a day. Two, and seclusion, which they would call timeout, you know, me in the school district have disagreed, significantly over was a timeout or was a seclusion. But they would end up in, and I'll give them the benefit of that. That was what they called the timeout room. It was every single day. So you know, I am not new to restrain seclusion. And I've always been kind of, you know, helping people or teaching people better ways of doing things. I'm just a small professional level, because I know none of my colleagues want to do it, right. So I remember talking to people, and I knew some of the statistics in Vermont, just from reading articles. And I remember thinking like, Okay, this school district is in Washington County, in Washington County had the highest incidences of restraint in the state. And I remember going to a colleague, one of my new colleagues, and I was like, we have a lot of restraints here. I wouldn't be surprised if the school has the most in the state, because I know, the numbers coming out of Washington County were like, you know, between four and 500. And this is Vermont, so it's small. So those are pretty big numbers. And I was thinking I was like, at this rate, if we're averaging and I'll be, I'll be nice one a day. That's 180 180 per school year. So that's, that's almost half of what the entire county has, like, we've got to be the moat. And that means we've got to be the most in the state.
Guy Stephens:And how many kids were in this school?
Brian Dalla Mura:Just I think it hovers around 400 Wow, wow. And so you know, I'm like, so I go, you know, I talked to the administration about it, and, and, you know, they kind of give me the political answers, like, oh, yeah, we have a problem we're trying to reduce. You know, I think they were just kind of being nice, being polite, I don't know. And then I continued to see it. And I started and then finally I started like, really questioning like, you know, these, you know, behavior interventionist, they're, they're appearing to be more like I use the term I was a correctional officers as like, that's, like, we need to shift this from like, These people should be support people not not like prison guards, right, like enforcing compliance and enforcing rules. And I was like, so these kids that are being restrained and secluded are just under a finer microscope, everything is being analyzed. They don't have any breathing room. And I started to think like, you know, you know, my son, my son. You know, he's, he's the type of kid that will get one reminder a week, you know, for talking in class, like he's, you know, you know, no behavior issues, and I was thinking to myself, man, if he had one of these behavior interventionists, they would find everything wrong with him and he'd probably be in trouble all the time and he would escalate to restraint seclusion. I started bringing up points like that, and and then I started noticing, okay, now I'm not on this team. I'm not on this team. I'm not invited to this meeting, because I started to oppose, you know, in question that the daily restraints and so as I questioned those things, the more I was removed from any internal conversations.
Guy Stephens:So there you are an inside the school you've been brought in for this new position, you see what's happening, and what's happening is not gonna make for districts it's or for a school that's that small to be having. You know, and again, I always go back to the the federal look on this in terms of, you know, I don't believe that a child should ever be, well, I don't believe a child should ever be secluded. And I think the use of restraint should be exceedingly rare. I mean, in a truly life threatening circumstance to save a life, perhaps, but when you're having one a day, that would have to be a very unsafe environment, if you were having to, you know, have a life, you know, life necessary intervention. Were these and somebody asked this question, but I'll bring this up here, where those restraints and seclusion is being reported to the best of your knowledge to the parents and reported to the state.
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah, oh, can I want to say one more thing? And then I'll answer that question. But I do love that question. And I want to come back to it because I want a pretty lengthy answer. But something else I brought up to the school was like, you know, one of the things I brought up was like, Okay, well, like, let's put in quite individual crisis management plans for these students, right? Like, let's look at their triggers. Let's look at the, you know, the went all the, you know, restraint, seclusion, training, trainings, training, right, like, they all have their own escalation cycle. So I, you know, let's look at that, let's look at what this looks like at each level. And let's look at how the, the the adults can respond. To manage these without restraint and seclusion. You know, I was told things like, Well, no, they have behavior plans, and your crisis plan will interfere with that. Right? So basically, like, de escalating, essentially, de escalation strategies were interfering with their compliance based behavior plans. That's what I was told,
Guy Stephens:wow, wow. Well, if I had a video effect here, my head would be pulling up,
Brian Dalla Mura:then that's, that's what I was told, you know, and I, and so, you know, I one student, I did make one and then I was told nope, nope, we're not going to use that. Because it's it goes against the behavior plan. Wow. So just really, like, common sense things in things that are just to me, I thought were like, common sense in the education world, we're not happening and they were opposed to them. Right. Like I thought, like, okay, good. I'm coming to them with the solution. Let's make crisis management plans. Let's really look at this. The other thing, debrief meetings, they didn't want to hold any, any debrief meetings, even though you know, rule 4500 The state boards rule on restraint, seclusion requires them they had a form that they would fill out. And just to check the box, right, and, and what I would seal the most common answer to, what could we do differently? The most common answer I saw was an A, or nothing. You know, what did you try to de escalate? The answers were remind them of their token economy, remind Craig Rossi privileges, so standard things. And so all right. Were parents notified? That was the question, right. Yes. Of course, there were. Right. The the state rules require that now this is I think one of the scariest things is that parents are notified in a really misleading way. You know, so yes, all of them were all of the restraints were documented. All have the parents were notified 100% of the time, according to the rules. But when parents get those phone calls, what you hear is oh, so and so had a hard time at lunch or there was a zigzag day and you know, we we had to be we had to put our hands on them. And it's really just downplayed so much, right. And but then we were able to work with them. We worked through it. And then that's that, and then okay, we're gonna be emailing you the documentation. Yeah. And the documentation is so excuse my language half assed and it just minimizes it so much, and all of that communication, all of that doctor mutation is so one sided, right? Like, the adult is the adult is almost always the victim. If you read those papers, if you listen to those conversations, though, and so wanted a cheeseburger, and they were serving hot dogs, so they got mad, and they kicked the staff. Right. And
Guy Stephens:then we had to put them in the life threatening hold. I mean, you know, how many parents have had a child that has had a, you know, a difficult time with something, yet we don't hold them down to the ground in a primary straining. And that was another thing about this right is that, you know, you're coming from Arizona. You know, you're coming for a program where you gotten, you know, weren't using restraint and seclusion. And of course, we're talking about elementary aged kids. And they were using prone restraint there, weren't they?
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah, that was towards the end. So I didn't see them until the end. And but oh, you know, the other thing I want to say about the parent notification before I answer that is, is the other thing in Vermont is, you know, you have to offer a deep, you have to invite the parents to the debrief meeting. And that is so out of, you know, the year I worked, there was 150 150 something restraints is what they reported. would have easily been 300. Had I not started advocate, people became fearful, the restraints students out of those 150 Something restraints, I can recall zero parents coming in for a debrief meeting. Now, that indicates a huge problem to me, that that's not parents not wanting to come in, that's the district, or that schools not making a good faith effort to invite parents in and truly educate them. Right, and they normalize this. And so, you know, how is it that out of 150 restraints, not a single parent came in for a debrief? And that's because it's so glossed over, right? Like it, and they normalize it, and they're like, Oh, you don't need to come in. And like, we got it. We can talk if you want, but it's never, you know, where's the education? And where's the reality? I want to say this, about notifying parents versus the reality of how violent these restraints look. Right? Right. Whereas the reality of, you know, the, you know, being dragged down the hallway and shoved into a room where they quickly close the door. You know, these things are really, really violent looking. And I mean, I would say, in our elementary schools in this country, you're seeing when you see students restrained, it's more violent than what you see the police when you see police arresting people out on the streets. It is a big struggle, a big fight. And it's really scary. And I don't think parents know that. And so, to the prone restraints, yeah, that was you know, that I remember that vividly. I went up to the principal's office, and I said, please explain to me why there's an elementary student facedown on the ground right now. I mean, I was I was mad. I was livid, you know, because I already knew how I felt about restraints. And I was like, Well, you know? And the answer was, well, it's an approved hold. And I looked at him. And I said, Well, I'm going to contact the school board, and advocate for a change so that it's no longer an approved hold. And
Guy Stephens:it was. So this is where this is where things really started coming up. So already, if we look at last year, you know, you would come in, and you would begin voicing your concerns about what you were seeing. But at that moment in time, after seeing that young child and the primary strain, things really went into, I think, high gear at that point, right. So
Brian Dalla Mura:that's when I was like, alright, you know, now I, I'm all in.
Guy Stephens:Now, let's not make too light of this. But I mean, you know, already when you came in, and were pushing against what was being done, that put you in a difficult position. As an educator, you were you were I mean, were you feeling sensing retaliation? I mean, what, what was happening at that point? I mean, were you were you feeling something then? Or was it later that you really began to feel a little bit of and again, you know, I don't want to over blow up, but at the same time, it sounds to me from our previous discussions, it was tangible. Even when I first talked to you that people didn't like what you were doing in terms of trying to bring about change.
Brian Dalla Mura:No, and that was scary. I had accepted my fate that, you know, I may be fired.
Guy Stephens:Right. So when you decided to go to the board, you know, at that point that you were kind of passing the point of no return potentially in terms of the percentage
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah, yeah. I, I was, you know, like I said, I was excluded. for meetings, I was excluded from plans. They would involve me in very little I, you know, the job almost turned into I just go sit in my office because they didn't want me doing anything. And I was like, alright, well, cool. I'm making a salary. But this is an awful place. When I started advocating towards with the board, that's when I started facing retaliation. Yeah, and I had accusations. You know, this is one of the accusations was that I was having an affair with another employee. That's as far as they went. It happened to be another employee that felt the same way. I did. totally unfounded. But, you know, I, it's so hard for me to believe how, how hard organizations will push back, and how there there is an organized effort to silence people. It wasn't you know, I listened in, you know, they had a meeting in the office next door to mine. They had a two hour meeting about me. You know, and I remember getting called up to the principal's office, you know, the day after that meeting, it was, you know, and I was like, oh, geez, like, I wonder what they were, I couldn't really hear, but I could hear that they were talking about me. And I was like, you know, I wonder what that meeting was about? And that's when they said that, you know, they're like, Oh, well, you need to be careful about your behavior with these employees. Because, you know, they think that you're, you have an inappropriate relationship with this person. And I was like, Are you kidding me? No, you know, like, and I really do believe, you know, I have no proof. But I do believe that that was an organized effort to to discredit me, right? Like, oh, this person and this person are against it. They're gonna say anything, because, you know, they have a relationship. And it was like, so that was there. I think I do believe that was their way of trying to discredit us.
Guy Stephens:No, no, no, knowing you like I know you. You know, you said earlier, you don't like no. But I also know that you're, you're not wanting to back down because somebody is doing something like that. So things begin at this point escalate, you begin going to the board. So talk to us about what happened the first time you went to the board and kind of where things went from there.
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah. So I'll start this with, I think, people who were out there who want to advocate, I do think it's scary. People will say mean things about you and to you. And in there. There's not much to actually be scared about, I think, you know, if you can, rather that. You know, if you're speaking the truth, and you're telling the truth, and you're, you're following all the privacy laws. You know, there's not much anybody can really do about it. And it's so important to understand that and to speak up. But yeah, so I went to a school board meeting. And I spoke and before the school board meeting, I wanted to get my facts straight. So you know, I started doing research around restraint exclusion, I tried to find out numbers, I wanted to go in with facts, right, because I was like, I don't know how many restraints there are, but it seems like every day. So that's when I stumbled across Office of Civil Rights, and I looked them up. Okay, so the district had 451. No other district in Vermont had more than 200. So right now, they're they're blown them out of water there. The particular school I worked at had 281. Again, no other discount had more than 200.
Guy Stephens:So it was a school of 400. And some correct Yeah, so school 400
Brian Dalla Mura:elementary students have more restraints than any district in Vermont. So I was like, Oh, wow.
Guy Stephens:Probably Probably rivaling some of the police departments. Yeah. Actually,
Brian Dalla Mura:it's more than the Burlington Police Department, the biggest city in Vermont uses uses use of force. So the school is using force more than the police in a city of 50,000 people right. 400 kids. And so, you know, I went in and I talked about that I cited the the Department of Ed website, you know, the guidance they have about prone restraint should never be used. And it was brand new to everybody. Right? So none of the school board members knew nobody knew this was happening. And it just kind of sparked a conversation and then somebody from the local media reached out to me and and wanted to know more, and I spoke to them and you know, I showed him the numbers and everybody's thinking these numbers have to be wrong. Like these numbers are so out there that they can't be right and even I thought that right. I was like, There's no way There's no way that no other district has 200. And in this school has 281. Turns out it was true. And so that really kind of sparked the conversation. People are like, okay, like, even if restraint and seclusion is necessary, why is it such an alarming rate here? That's impossible. And then people started to come to their own conclusion, right? Like you said before, like, if it's only supposed to be used in emergencies, then either we have restraint seclusion being used when it's not supposed to, or we have a very, very, very dangerous school on our hands. One of the two has to be true, right? And so, either way, something has to change. And I think that kind of perspective that I kind of put out there took away a lot of the argument, right? Like, something has to change whether you agree with restraint and seclusion, or you don't, something has to change. Because even if you think restraint, seclusion are unnecessary. Nobody, even even people who call restraints, therapeutic or not, you know, are not going to accept those numbers. And they're gonna say, some something isn't working. And so, you know, I went to some community forums where I talked about it, and some people did push back. And they're like, Oh, well, you know, restraint, seclusion, I've worked in schools, and we have kids that are out of control. And they, and the answer was always like, how that many times, right? Like if students, even if students are getting bad out of control to where they are posing a life threatening situation, right? How, you know, people started asking, Well, how is it getting to that point, then?
Guy Stephens:No one is school in a school of 400. At some kids, if that were to happen once, once or twice a year? That would be notable, right? I mean, if you had one or two life threatening situations happen over the course of a year, that will be notable, but I have hundreds of them.
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah. And then, you know, I think when I contacted you, that was one of the superintendent, they had a board meeting and the superintendent, you know, went up, and this was the old superintendent, we have a new one, since he was been very supportive. But the old one, you know, went up there and said, to the school, because the school board started questioning, like, why are we using Ron restraints? Why are our numbers so high, and she told everybody, you don't know what you're talking about. There's different kinds of holds. And I think, you know, she ended her Spiel with, and you know, none of that. So basically, their argument was the public. And the school board is not educated enough to know about restraints, you need to trust the school district, you need to trust the professionals. Because we know what we're doing, and
Guy Stephens:how many families have trusted themselves into trauma. I mean, you know, that, that trauma that this leads to, for kids, for families and for others. And again, I mean, you know, that's the really frustrating part about so much of this is that, in a perfect world, we should be able to trust our kids, or going to a place where this is not going to happen. You know, as you mentioned, if we're not doing this to our kids, because it's unnecessary all the time. I mean, it just, it doesn't make any sense that in environments that should be safe for kids, they're not. And this is happening like this, you know, in schools. So you began to really increase your efforts. So you went from, you know, inside the school, to, you know, advocating for change, to suddenly go into a board meeting at a much larger, you know, setting. And even from there, you began to do more, you began to write opinion pieces, and you begin to reach out to organizations tell us more about how you because, you know, I relate to this, Brian, this this idea that when things aren't going your way, when you're fighting against something, the answer is not to run back to your, your safe place, the answer is to double down and do more. So tell me about what you did to double down to try to really bring attention to this.
Brian Dalla Mura:You know, it was well I reached out to some of the local anti racism committees looking for support, they were supportive, they put out a list of demands. I I tried to put out you know, as many opinion pieces in the papers as possible. I tried to at least every school board meeting have somebody speak or whether it was me or somebody else. Knowing that if I went to a school board meeting or somebody else went to a school board meeting, when there was a little snippet in the paper covering the school board. That would be in their opinion pieces. I had a goal of restraint. seclusion, being in the paper, in small town weekly publication, I had a goal, every single week, I want those words in the newspaper, I wanted that to just not go away. And I was pretty successful with that, right? Like, school boards are great. I love that people volunteer, I love that people get involved. But when there's controversy, it seems to like the standard practice is let's not talk about it, let's not respond. And it'll quietly go away, knowing that I don't care how quiet you are, I'm going to continue to be loud, and I'm going to continue to get the coverage. And so that was probably where I found the most success was not letting the silence when, right like keeping the conversation going. The same time I emailed the state legislation, legislators thinking, long shot, I emailed the School Board of Ed to write and they say, Oh, you need to go to the Department of Ed, the Department of Ed pointed me to the direction of this the state board,
Guy Stephens:big round circle of accountability.
Brian Dalla Mura:And I knew that was gonna get me nowhere. And clearly,
Guy Stephens:I'm sorry, but I have to share this comment. Because, you know, this just brings a smile to my eyes and a rather bleak topic here. But haha, they failed to plan ignore you. Plan ignoring did not work for Brian, and it doesn't work for anyone. But at any rate. Thanks, Quinn for that comment.
Brian Dalla Mura:What they were trying to do. And so, you know, with the the Board of Ed and the Department of Ed. I didn't put much effort there. Because, you know, I realized like, they're not providing any oversight, like this should have raised red flags, right? That's right. And so I was like, they they have these numbers, they know these numbers. And it wasn't concerning to them. So I didn't put much effort there. So I went to the legislators thinking like, okay, like, you know, this is a long shot. But I, I heard back, you know, and they wrote back and they were interested, and they they acknowledged it was a big problem. And they were shocked to see the numbers, they were shocked to see how many states have laws in place, because Vermont doesn't actually have a law. And it just went from there. You know, I can't really say much about it. But like just that one email sparked enough conversation to get legislation introduced in the Mr. We have a bill. Yeah.
Guy Stephens:And of course, you you mentioned that the previous superintendent was on her way out. And I would say that's probably fortunate. You got a new superintendent, who you began to work with a bit and of course, I had a chance to meet with him as well, on a couple of occasions, Dr. Dr. Mike, is they seem to call him there. And, of course, he had come from a state where he was surprised, I think at the amount of restraint that the fact that prom was being used that seclusion was being used, and has certainly seemed to be an ally and all of this, but it's hard work. It's hard to change for a lot of reasons. But now, of course, there has been a bill introduced. And, you know, I've met previously with the Teresa wood and Tiffany, turn, remember? Thank you. Yeah. And thrilled to see them introducing some legislation. But I'm gonna say this. And I mean, I think it's true. You can argue with me if you think I'm wrong here, but I don't know that we would be there right now, Brian, if it had not been for the efforts that you started there, first than your school, and then the district to bring about this change? I'm not saying that at some point. It may not have come. You know, but I think that you really were a catalyst for this happening. And this change could be one that would be felt throughout the state.
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah, and I want to comment on that. And I totally agree. I mean, you know, a lot of people helped along the way. I think your organization helped me I called you for advice. You know, reaching out to people to if you want to advocate for change, reach out to the organizations. You know, I was surprised at how quickly I got a response from you. So, you know, try things. Something sticks. Sometimes you hear back sometimes you don't, but that was very helpful, but I do agree if it hadn't been for me, you know, accepting that I might lose my job over this. You know, not everybody's in that position. But, yeah, this this wouldn't have happened.
Guy Stephens:Now you're no longer at that school, but you're still within a state Correct?
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah, no, I got a new teaching job. Were very happy. But you know, you have to keep pushing. You can't be scared. And you, it's just amazing, you know, if you if you keep pushing, you know, where, where it leads you?
Guy Stephens:Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know, I think, you know, Brian, you and I have had a lot of conversations about this. But I think there's still a lot of even beyond. Let's be really hopeful that something gets passed here in Vermont, because there is a bill up, that would have been the use of power and restraint and isolation or seclusion. Correct. Yeah. That's what what's in the bill now. So I think you and I were talking that the outlook, I think there's a hopeful outlook for that, I think that bill, you could pass and as you and I were talking about before the show, there are bills right now in Washington State and Idaho and New York and Texas, trying to think there are others. But there are a number of states that are pushing things right now. And that momentum, helps to build more momentum. So if you're in a state that has laws that aren't where they need to be, and even if they are, we can do better, you know, anything we can do to come together and get these bills moving forward. Even if you feel like you're in a state that it's impossible, Idaho now is pushing some legislation they haven't done, it's certainly not what I would hope to see. But it would be a step in a better direction, I think the more people that get on the train to help bring this forward. And again, you know, one person, you know, you talk about one person making a difference, and we sometimes can feel so insignificant and alone. But you know, I mean, this is truly a one person can make a difference kind of situation. And again, not to, you know, not to dismiss, you know, again, I've met some of the people that you've worked with along the way, who have been very involved also. But again, you know, when one person stands up, a lot can happen. And of course, you come from a background where, you know, you began your educational career using restraint, seclusion, under the you know, you know, instruction that this is kind of what you do in these situations, you had your own awakening about it, I would venture to say, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, or you don't have to comment, but I would venture to say that you probably hold some trauma from the experiences that you had, you know, using restraint and isolation and seclusion on kids. It's not an easy journey to be on, but it's important one for sure.
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah, no, I do. And actually, as a matter of fact, when I went, the, the school district that we're talking about sent me to be a CPI trainer. And I remember becoming like, physically sick, you know, not to the point of throwing up or anything, but, you know, I could feel it in my body when I had to practice them, or when I would watch them demonstrated I, I didn't realize how traumatized I was from it. So I can't imagine the students, I really can't. You know, if I felt that way, I just, I cannot imagine what it does. To the victims. It's scary. You know, that's something else I want to say too, because, you know, one of the other things I talked about was, so this school district, I mean, they trained almost everybody in restraints, which not everybody was doing restraints, but I think it created a culture of normalizing it. And that was something else I got pushback on. I was like, Well, why don't we just train everybody else in the de escalation portion and leave the restaurant part off? Nope. We want everybody we want as many people as possible trying to illustrate something wrong. Yeah, that's a big wrong move.
Guy Stephens:Yeah. And it's not even in the intendant move by at least the the training companies that I've, you know, aware of, you know, they actually recommend it being taught in a tiered way. And the truth is, the more people that are that are trained in hands on approaches, the more likely it is that somebody will use one. I mean, and that's,
Brian Dalla Mura:you know, that's what I was seeing, you know, or people think, oh, it's it's, this is what they're supposed to be doing. And that's, that's right. And that's, you know, something else I want to talk about, too, with, you know, the advocacy and why I chose the route I did. So I had a choice, right, I could have in rule 4500. That's the state boards rule that governs the use of restraint and seclusion currently in Vermont. If you want to make a complaint, you make a complaint to you basically make a complaint, I think, to the principal, and then they have 30 days to respond. And if you're not happy with that outcome, then it goes to the superintendent. And then it pretty much just dies out right? And so I've seen people make complaints and so you're complaining to the people that you're complaining about didn't make much sense to me and I knew that wasn't gonna go anywhere. Yep, And I also wanted to stay away from individual cases, right? I wanted to stay away from like, oh, well, this happened or this happened, or this happened, I wanted to paint the global picture of here's our general problem that is much larger than each individual situation. So I knew that the complaint process was just it wasn't the right approach, right? Because even if I made a complaint, like if I saw, okay, this, this happened to this student, that's one complaint out of hundreds of restraints. Like, it wasn't enough for me. So I was like, No, I'm going for policy change here. Right. Right. You know?
Guy Stephens:Well, it is a systemic issue. And, you know, I mean, certainly, I think where we're parents and families can come forward. And in fact, this is probably really timely right now, Brian, is that parents and families in Vermont that have had experiences with restraint, seclusion, this is a good time to contact, Delegate Woods off with Office, and to, you know, get in touch because your stories are really critical. While you know, getting here to the point that legislation is being put on the table is a huge step, getting it passed is huge, as well. And I'll tell you, there's a lot of value in a story from a family, and even more so. And there's probably only one thing that will quiet a room more than than a family is a self advocate. So a young person that has experienced restraint, seclusion, if you come and speak at the hearing for a bill like this, you can be you really making a huge difference in getting that that legislation passed. So the voices of live experience are so critical in getting these things move forward.
Brian Dalla Mura:And I do I mean, I strongly encourage people to to file complaints. Right? You know, because that that is the greatest way to protect your family and your own child. That's where that makes a huge difference. And then collectively to those voices are so much more powerful than, you know me given statistics, right? Sure,
Guy Stephens:sure. And
Brian Dalla Mura:thankfully, we've had, you know, families locally, speak up, we've had, you know, when students speak up, and that is, you know, nobody can dispute that. And those stories are so impossible to ignore, it's just so heartbreaking. They're very impactful. And, you know, I think it's, yeah, those those individual stories, that that kind of paints the picture of, of why
Guy Stephens:we need to stop this. Yeah. And to be clear, there are a lot of levels that you can complain, you can complain to the school level to the principal, you can complain to the board of education level, you can go to the State Board of Education, you can file a state complaint, if you're a child under Ida, which most kids that are being restrained, excluded, or you can file a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights. And you can also file a complaint with the Department of Justice. And the one thing I would say is recently, the Department of Justice has been doing really significant work around restraint seclusion, I'm gonna put the link actually in the chat. But the DOJ has been doing investigations that have led to settlement agreements that have changed policy, that it really even changed while it helped change policy statewide, as it did here in Maryland. So there's some, there's some things that you can do. But again, connecting with others is, I think, a really strong thing to do. And figuring out how you can you know, go about helping this support change. And that's why we're here. We want to help people do that as well. Brian, I had promised you we would run about an hour and we've already gone a little bit over and didn't didn't probably get to any of the questions that I was hoping to get to. We had a lot of comments in the chat, a very active discussion here in the chat.
Brian Dalla Mura:Well, I can I can take a little bit more time. So
Guy Stephens:okay, okay. Okay, well, let me let me get to a couple questions here. This one's asking a specific question about the legislation. And whether that bill is just for public schools or whether it includes non public school placements, and I don't know they it's all okay, perfect. That's perfect. Yeah. And in some cases, that's that's a really good question. Because in some cases, it is different. It is different in terms of a bill that may in Maryland, for instance, we completely got rid of seclusion and all of our public schools, but we're not completely able to get rid of it or non public schools, although that was part of our goal. And we will be back because you know, as Brian and I can both share, you know, you don't just give up you keep coming back and keep trying to do more.
Brian Dalla Mura:It is all school So thankfully, yep, that's perfect.
Guy Stephens:Let's see. Yeah, I absolutely agree with you kids have been traumatized. It is a lot to get them to advocate and I never will We push any child into doing that, only when and if a child is ready, should you ever consider having them, you know, share their story, but it can make a lot of change. Trisha here from Idaho says that parents are being blocked from parts of the conversation for change. But they have a group called Idahoans for Safe Schools, that's pushing in Idaho to bring about change.
Brian Dalla Mura:What I see all the time is, you know, that attempt to silence
Guy Stephens:Yeah, yeah. Well, somebody somebody mentioned this inheritance right here. Child Protective Services, parents, I can't tell you how many parents I've talked to that have had CPS called on them, after they've, you know, begun to complain about this. And I mean, and again, I mean, you know, when you think about it, I mean, you know, they accuse you of having an affair, they accuse parents of abuse. It's really, really, really upsetting to hear those kinds of things. Well, let me ask you, let me ask you my final question, and I'll give you a chance to have any other comments you have. But you know, again, you had a journey here, you had a journey from, you know, where you began. And again, you know, when you were a brand new educator, this is how you were told to handle situations, and you were using restraint seclusion, to a point where you began to realize, oh, I don't have to do this as often to, I don't have to do it at all. And I'm going to advocate for change, to advocating for a change at a state level. So this has been a tremendous journey for you. What advice or input we have a lot of educators in our audience, what advice or input would you have for other educators maybe early in their career? Or maybe seeing these things? Knowing they're happening? They're not comfortable with? What would you encourage them to do? Or? Or what advice would you give them based on your own experience?
Brian Dalla Mura:You know, I think I think it's, it's around education, and in sharing personal experiences, and, you know, creating collaborative, like professional communities where you're reflective. I think, you know, that's where I learned the most, I think, because when I reflect in when I have a colleague that I can talk to, like, you know, teaching is a hard job, and it's stressful. And I think, you know, having a colleague that you can vent to, or bounce ideas off of, or just say, Man, I did this, this was dumb move. Like, yeah, I'll never do that, again, having those conversations. And rather than looking at like the child's behavior, I think like having this safe colleague to talk to you about your own behavior, and somebody you're able to get feedback from, I think that is, probably the best piece of advice I can give is, you know, every time you find yourself in a difficult situation, really reflect on it, and be honest with yourself about what you can do differently next time. And then, you know, advocate for stronger trainings from the administration, you know,
Guy Stephens:and hopefully training that moves away from so many of the failed approaches that are based on token economies, rewards and punishment, and, you know, all these things, all the behavioral approaches that are often escalating kids, so let's get people moving in the right direction.
Brian Dalla Mura:Something we hear now is that schools want more, you know, we lack mental health resources in schools. Right? Well, so right there that tells us like, okay, so yeah, the trainings you need to advocate for need to be kind of that approach, you know, the brain science, the nervous system, you know, really kind of understanding the basics of those, I think is, even if you don't need the training for yourself advocated for the school, because that'll help other people understand. Right, we hear the word trauma informed, right. But I think a lot of those trauma informed conversations really do black. They always go over the simple science behind it, but I think there needs to be more in depth approaches there. And then, you know, and then really, you know, how are we responding? How are we being responsive to that trauma?
Guy Stephens:Right, right. And the importance of the well regulated adult nervous system, and the fact that, you know, as you brought through your story, adults are often the ones that are responsible for a child's behavior, right. You know, we need you know, kids don't have fully developed brains, they don't have the, even the developmental capacity to self regulate when we're talking about very young children. So a lot of it really is about the adult, you know, you don't just build a behavior plan that focuses on all the things a child's going wrong, and all the ways you're trying to motivate them to do better than it should be about what changes the adult is going to make as well. But so often that's lacking right so often it's all about The child. So I want to be mindful of our time. And I know we're just about there any final word for parents, you know, in terms of as an educator, but you're also a father. Any advice for parents out there that might be going through this?
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah, I think it for students, specifically for students who are being restrained or secluded, I think, you know, participating in those debrief meetings, asking questions. And this, I think that's, that goes a long way. And I think, you know, even for teachers and staff who appear to be on the way opposite end of the spectrum, I mean, you know, that, if they're not, if they're not inviting parents in for debrief meetings, that means they're not even debriefing themselves. And so, you know, really insisting on holding those meetings where we're going to talk about this restraint, and we're going to, we're going to really dissect it, we're gonna really talk about it, and we're gonna really talk about what we can do differently in the future. And I think it's so hard to do that from the outside is apparent, right. But, but I would hope that even in the most difficult situations that that might shift one person in the room to start being more reflective about the process. Absolutely. If not, I think, you know, holding those debrief meetings, and in really talking about it and talking about the realities of it too, like I think it holds people accountable as well. Right? Um, if they're not willing to hold themselves accountable. So I would say like, anytime it happens, get in the building, sit at the table, and dissect it with them. Because if they're not willing to do with you, they're not doing it by themselves. Sure, sure.
Guy Stephens:Yeah. And you know, I mean, again, you from my perspective, I don't think it's ever appropriate to lock a kid in a seclusion room. But what I would say in terms of restraint, or excuse me, seclusion, excuse me, restraint in terms of restraint on blame, and jetlag in terms of restraint, it should be exceedingly rare. So I don't want to hear an excuse, like we don't have time to debrief. You know, if, in fact, we're talking about restraint only being used in life threatening situations, that should be so unusual, that you want to spend any effort, you can be briefed to make sure it doesn't happen again. I'm a firm believer, and you know, what, there are more people that agree with us now than than don't probably in terms of anything we can do to avoid the potential use of restraint should be done. So anything we can do, and if that means we brief and we have a discussion and figure out how could we How could we adults handle things differently in a future situation? That's a really important step. So you know, I think that's great advice. I'm going to go ahead and wrap us up here, because we have gone well over our time that I promise, I'm sorry, I think we could have talked for much longer. I knew that. But I do want to thank you, you know, again, you know, your journey has been probably a difficult one. I mean, even again, back to your beginning experience, but kind of what you what you learned and what you brought forward and what you did to bring about change. You know, somebody else said to here a minute ago, it's so nice to have an educator like yourself that's out there doing this, that's bringing forward change in a big way. You know, I don't know what the population of Vermont is. But, you know, when you started bringing about change at your local school, that was 400, and some kids, but you know, we're talking about many, many children that could be far less likely to be restrained and secluded, based on the work that you've been doing. So Brian, I really appreciate it appreciate your your journey. I look forward to continuing to work with you and figure out ways to collaborate. Because I think as an educator, you bring with you something that I will never have. And I'm not an educator, so I can't say as a teacher, I understand somebody's experience. I can't say as a human but I think it's always important to have other educators that can really relate and bring forward what needs to be brought forward. So Brian, thank you so much for being with us today.
Brian Dalla Mura:Yeah. Oh, and my final thought here for teachers too is that you know, if you are using restraint seclusion, like really challenge yourself to stop you'll feel so much better when you when you do when you figure it out. But you know, even set small goals for yourself. And you know, I guarantee the less you do it, the better you'll feel and you won't burn out as quickly but it when you finally stop. It's a much more enjoyable job.
Guy Stephens:Amen, amen. And you know, there's data that seems to back that up as well that places that have reduced and eliminated restraint and seclusion. They find out that they have increased teacher satisfaction. They have decreased staff turnover. There's good things that happen when you get rid of these things. And we've been in tough times. Now's the time. We have to we've got to move away. So Brian, thank you so much. All those of you that joined us today, we had a great audience. Thank you for joining us. We'll be back again, I think in two weeks. For our next program. I don't have a queued up because I'm a little off my regular game being in a different place, but try, try my best here. Thank you. We'll see you guys all again very soon. Thanks, Brian. Thank you.