Discipline for Learning Not Shaming with Jodi Place.
Jodi Place has served as a public educator for over 25 years. Prior to becoming a school administrator, she was a Nationally Board-Certified English teacher. As an administrator, she has experience leading in traditional high school and middle school settings as well as alternative education. She holds her Applied Educational Neuroscience certification from Butler University and is currently pursuing her Neurosequential Model in Education training led by Dr. Bruce Perry. She has published a Quick Reference Guide with ASCD, Supporting Emotional Regulation in the Classroom
Discipline for Learning Not Shaming with Jodi Place.
Jodi Place has served as a public educator for over 25 years. Prior to becoming a school administrator, she was a Nationally Board-Certified English teacher. As an administrator, she has experience leading in traditional high school and middle school settings as well as alternative education. She holds her Applied Educational Neuroscience certification from Butler University and is currently pursuing her Neurosequential Model in Education training led by Dr. Bruce Perry. She has published a Quick Reference Guide with ASCD, Supporting Emotional Regulation in the Classroom
Well hello and welcome. It is time for a another alliance against seclusion restraint live. Really excited to have you here today with us hope you're able to join us wherever you might be. For those of you that may be joining us for the first time, my name is Guy Stevens. I'm the founder and executive director of the alliance against seclusion restraint. The alliance against seclusion restraint was actually started about almost four years ago, we're heading to the four year anniversary here very soon. And the organization was started around issues like restraint, seclusion, including things like suspension, expulsion, corporal punishment, very broadly speaking, all the things that are often being done to kids in the name of behavior, often things that are having consequences, like trauma, injury, or even death in the case of physical restraint. And of course, we see kids that are sometimes being pushed down that school to prison pipeline. So our organization was really started to try to promote positive change, trying to move away from a lot of the approaches that were really leading to poor outcomes for not just kids, but also for teachers and staff. So you know, broadly speaking, we're supportive of kind of trauma informed, neuroscience aligned approaches, working with kids collaboratively. And of course, relationships are always critical when it comes to success. So I'm very excited to be here today with you, as always, and of course, we have a lot of fantastic speakers that join us and today is no exception. Today, I'm really excited to have with us Jody place. And Jody has a history as a educator and administrator, and is going to be sharing a very special presentation with us. I do want to let you know a couple of housekeeping items here real quick. As always, all of our presentations are recorded. So they're available after the fact on YouTube, on Facebook and as audio podcasts, and on LinkedIn, so you can get them in lots of places. So with all that, let me go ahead and bring Jodi up and introduce Jodi and tell you a little bit about hey, Jody, how are you?
Unknown:I'm great. Thank you. Great. Well,
Guy Stephens:it's exciting to have you here today. I'm gonna read your bio here. And then we'll get started in just a moment. You of course, have served as a public educator for over 25 years. So you obviously started when you were about three, right? Yeah. And of course, prior to becoming a school administrator, you were a nationally board certified English teacher, as a school administrator, you have experience leading traditional high school and middle school settings, as well as an alternative education setting, you hold a certificate in applied Educational Neuroscience. And I think that's how we connected one point from Butler University. And you're currently pursuing you're in and I have this in my bio is currently pursuing your neurosequential model in education training, led by Dr. Bruce Perry. And if there's any updates on that, you have to tell me in the moment, and of course, you publish a quick reference guide with ASCD and supporting emotional regulation in the classroom. And aside from having the opportunity to meet you, while you were in the applied Educational Neuroscience program, we later were able to meet at a conference. Let's say that was the first attachment trauma Network Conference last year. Yeah, yep. Yep. And, of course, we, we interviewed your partner in crime recently, Dustin, and I know you and Dustin actually hits presented together that that particular event, and I remember going in, you had music playing it was a great, great atmosphere. But the work that you're doing is is amazing, and you know, changing things. And of course, the applied Educational Neuroscience program, that sucker Laurie does details program. And of course, we have Lori as a, as a frequent guest here. We were just talking with her recently about her brand new book. And all the great work that she's doing, of course, that program at Butler is is amazing. You know, I think you were absolutely, absolutely, and I think you were in the cohort of the the first cohort that I had the opportunity to meet. And there were so many amazing people in that program. And, you know, I always say it's like, you know, it's the most amazing people that are in it. And, you know, one is, is as amazing as the next and people that really are shifting mindsets and, and practices. So it was great to have an opportunity to meet you there. So what about the neurosequential model? Is that something you're still working through?
Jodi Place:Yeah, so um, I am so excited about this like next learning opportunity. I'm always looking to continue to grow and learn. And so actually tonight and and my partner in crime Dustin, we're in the another cohort together so oh goodness. But we are working through the second part of our experience for that and I just hope it's just going to help us grow and build on what we're doing. So we can be even, hopefully more check more of change agents that, you know, I know we both desire to be so
Guy Stephens:sure that's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, Bruce Perry, of course, you know, renowned, you know, trauma expert, author, you know, I'm always recommending, what happened to you the book that he co authored with Oprah. And you know, so many of the great books and Laurie had one as well, connections over compliance. Titles alone are like enough to bring me in, like, yes, I've got to read this. And, you know, there's so much to the title of that book, what happened to you, because it's reframing so much of the way people look at the world, you know, when you look at people, rather than saying, What's wrong with you? Why do you do this? When you begin to look at things differently? And ask questions, like, what happened? What did you experience, it can make such a major shift. So looking forward to that, and of course, you've got a presentation today that you're gonna be sharing with us that I think is is very much in that same vein of kind of our thought process, how we think about discipline, how we think about working with and supporting kids. So we'll get that in one second here. I do want to invite those of you that are watching, I usually like to ask this early. Let us know who you are, where you're from. And, you know, tell us in the chat, where you're where you're joining us from, you know, Jodi and I were talking ahead of time, I said, Well, you know, we usually get about this many people, she's like, gonna stop, that's gonna make me nervous. There's only a few of us. So if everybody that's there can tell me where they are and who they are and where they're from would be great. I will share with you that we already have a familiar friend, Ginger, Ginger Haley, joining us from Utah. Let's see. And we have somebody joining us from Maryland here as well, Angie. So I'm sure we'll have other people joining us from other places, we often have people joining from Australia or New Zealand. And it's really great to see people from all over the world that are that are here and interested in all of this. So with that, I'm going to go ahead and bring up your presentation deck. And I've got it on the screen, which is discipline for learning, not shaming, and I let people that are watching us live that the three or four of them. No, you don't want to overwhelm here. But I'll let folks know that if they have questions, we'll be taking questions at the end. But you're always welcome to put them in the chat. So you know, sometimes I know this happens with me, if I don't put it on something, while I'm thinking about it, I might lose it. So feel free to put your questions in the chat at any time. And we'll try to get through to some of those questions as we wrap up the presentation. So thank you for those that are joining us. And Jodi, thank you so much for joining us to give this presentation today. I'm gonna as I promised, vanish here in a second so that you can take over and give your presentation. But if you need anything, just say the word and I'll be here or if things really go wrong. We've got our my assistant here, Courtney, who helps out with now all of these, and she's in the backstage area as well. So if things really go off the wire coordinate may pop up
Unknown:Great and Powerful Oz behind the curtain.
Guy Stephens:That's great. So take it away.
Unknown:So first, let me just say I'm so truly honored to be here. And thank you for those of you who are spending time with me today. I think one of the amazing parts of this journey is that I have gotten to meet so many wonderful people who have helped me learn and grow and evolve as a human. So truly thank you for being here and sharing in this opportunity. When I was thinking about this, and this has been a topic that I've talked about before today, I mean, as an administrator, of course, as if any of you are administrators, no discipline is just a huge part of what we have as a responsibility. And I just wanted to note one thing on the slide, when I was thinking about what to put on this slide, under my name, I could put my role and I could you know, put different credentials, but I want you to know that I come to you today like as a fellow traveler, and you may very well hear an announcement I told guy that I have on you know, in my building right now. I just finished the day students just went home. So we may hear announcements. We are we're coming to you right now. And a space of true genuineness for this work. And I'm hoping in this in this conversation because I do want it to be kind of a conversation. I love interaction in the chat. So please, I will be so excited to read all of your comments and everything that you share. But I want us to come together because I think the only way we're going to move forward with and I'm probably going to say some things that are going to be unpopular but a broken system I think our discipline system is is poor. Again, and it's been broken. And I think the only way we're going to move forward to see systemic change that is long past due, is for us to have uncomfortable conversations to come, be willing to come to the table to share our lived experiences, our voices. And so and to really reflect, so I'm hoping that in this time together, that ultimately we're going to be able to really think about where we are. And I do at the end, try to give some some ideas, I never want to leave the table without putting something on the table as suggestions or things that I'm considering or things that I've done that I have found to be effective. So ultimately, I just want to start making the decision process about learning and reduce the use of it as a means to punish or cause students to, frankly suffer. So just to kind of give you like, just some groundwork so I just put a fellow traveler because some of this I am coming from I was in a division for over 20 years. And so this year, I have moved not only to a new division, so that's been a huge change. But I came out of spinning most of my experience in high school to middle school, I was an alternative education. And let me just give a shout out to alternative education. Alternative is not a bad word. There are so many unfair myths and stigmas associated with alternative education. But my alternative education students said that middle school was where for them, things went a little bit off the rails. And so I decided this year to leave a pretty comfortable nest, a community I've been in for a long time, and come into middle school. So I say that, again, that I'm having to really myself, go back to what is my why looking being in a system that you know, I have to learn myself. And so I am a fellow traveler here. As you know, my English teacher at heart. So I love some quotes. And these two for me, the first one, if you've ever probably had a conversation with me, you know that I keep this Brene Brown, quote, on a post it on my desk. And so because it's so real for me, just for me as a human myself, and then as I interact with others, students, other adults in my profession, even when I act, you know, interact with my children, my spouse, all of these people that what we don't need in the midst of struggle is shame for being human. And I think that there are so it's so often that we're responding in a way that is so human. But yet, how it's received, you know, we don't we get a reaction, or we can't see that in someone else, we look at their behavior, and how we react to it. We don't see the humanity and what's happening, because I believe foundationally, that behavior is communication. And that we just have to really work hard sometimes, maybe all the time to listen to what that behavior is telling us. And so that is truly the foundation of of who I am. Honestly, just as a person, when I talk about going through the applied Educational Neuroscience program, it changed me as an educator, for sure. But it changed me just as a human as well, and how I interact with other people. And then the other, I've tried to put some people that I really hope that you will kind of look further into and this will build curiosity to look deeper. But Christina Torres has done a lot of great writing. And she just keeps it so real. And so that's another quote that our students and our children, they didn't wake up with shame. People and systems created a world that puts Shame on them. We must actively work not to fix students, but to uproot and undo the systems that try and shame us a move toward a world rooted in love and care. And I think, again, when I talk about our discipline system in general, I do think that it is something that really needs to be uprooted. It is something that I think is built on thinking we can fix kids and I don't see kids as broken. I think most of the time they're behaving in the way that their brain and body is supposed to to keep them safe. And so I just thought was a very powerful quote for me. If you're willing to share it again, or you can kind of look at this, not even from your own point of view, but if you want to look at it from, you know, a relationship, somebody that you know, kind of like outside of yourself. I did, I was interested in what to you to shame? What does it look like? What does it sound like? And what does it feel like in your body? And it might even say what it looks like, you know, like, for me, when I think about shame, it's like, I feel like it's a weighted cloak. You know, like, I just feel like, it's a something that is like draped on my shoulders, and it's just so heavy. So like, what does it look like? So, the, in just terms of thinking, like, what does in your mind, you know, shame really look like? What does it sound like? And what does it feel like to you when you, you know, experience it. And again, I don't know how many are online. So in terms of, but again, I think it's that sharing of like, to name it to tame it. And what's mentionable is manageable, right? These little reminders, but building that emotional vocabulary, so that we can talk about this very, very, honestly and openly. Because I think when we start doing that, we can then take that, and apply it to how we on smaller scales, maybe within our classrooms, or administrative in a building, and then broaden it out to systematically how we discipline to really say, is that what I'm seeing in the student across for me? Does it look like they're wearing a heavy cloak? Do their shoulders and body language go down? Their head goes down? What do we see? You know, what are they saying? So I put a lot of reflective questions in here, because I think through reflection, it there's truly the answers and the solutions we need. Yeah, Nicole, me too. I always feel it in my in my stomach. And think about how many times we hear students talk about their stomach's hurting. I hear it so often with students though, they will want to go home or they'll say My stomach hurts. And sometimes we're, you know, the adult response is, no, it doesn't, you're just trying to get out of this or you want to go home. But it's so very real to them. And they truly are experiencing probably that knot in their stomach for some reason, right. But we're kind of dismissing that they're telling us how their body feels, and that there's something going on, there's an overwhelm, or there's a stressor, and they're feeling it in their body. So I just wanted us to have really, and again, these are things we can kind of go back to, like, you know, individually, cuz I know that's like a, that's one of those questions, but I just always think I can control myself, it starts with me. So thinking about it from my own point of view. So I have to I gotta jump right into a little bit of brain science. And I know, we're not going to have necessarily all the time, I wish we could have to delve deeply into this. But what I have here is the polyvagal. If you know like Steven, Dr. Steven Porges. And this was actually a visual that was created by someone who's been on this live stream before Connie, per Seki. She is amazing, I put a link to her amazing organization on this lady, she has lots of great, great resources. But essentially what I wanted to make the point for on this slide is that shame and learning do not exist in the same part of our brain, when we experience experienced shame, that is putting us in those lower regions of our brain. And if you look at the visual that's putting us into places of fight, flight, and freeze, and if you hopefully you can see some of the associations that we have when we're in a fight, fight or freeze. So if we use discipline, and the product of that is shaming, essentially, our students are not learning and it really is just scientifically that simple. Because if you see learning is in that prefund, frontal, frontal, sorry, prefrontal area, so you cannot have both. We know that shame is connected with the limbic system. We know that it's late. to an urge for self protection. So depending on how we approach discipline, we could actually create a system where we put students and flight fight or freeze, we put them in survival mode. And I don't think that adults in our field, come to the building every day, come into a space, wanting to cause and inflict fear on our children. But we have to be really honest, if what we're doing is actually resulting in that, where students feel that we are not safe, we are emotionally safe, we are not we are, we are in danger. And so again, I just wanted to provide some resources, we're not meant to always stay, you know, in the social gait engagement plays, and that's why it's such as blended, we will move in our day, you know, I'm not a morning person. So maybe I'm not all the way up at the top, but then I might move, move there, and then I get a phone call that is not pleasant. So then I kind of moved down. But then as long as I'm able to recover, but what we don't want to have, and with some of our students that are dealing with chronic stressors, they're constantly engaged in a discipline process that is embedded with shame, then we're forcing them into the that lower region. And that is very, very unhealthy. And so again, I wish I had more time to talk about that, because it's, that's, that's where Laurie DESA, tell who I will reference in this, read everything she's written, if you have an opportunity to do the applied Educational Neuroscience program, it is transformative, and I cannot speak more highly about it. So what I wanted to do at this point is I want us to consider some of the disciplinary structures and systems that we have. So that might be in your world, whether that's, you know, detention, in school suspension, out of school suspension, alternative education. So sometimes we think about this, and when we think about those, but I also want to factor in incentive plans, so and programs, and even classroom management models, like behavior charts, that are posted some different things like in PBIS, where we have, you know, token economies, for instance. And what do those look like in your world? Or if you experience them yourself, what did they like look like? So if you ever got in school suspension, what as I kind of traveled and visited, and talk to a lot of colleagues in school suspension rooms, I find that those are spaces that have you see these, like, you know, they're isolating, they want to put you in a, in a space where you can't see others. Sometimes they're very stark. They have, you know, you will not posters post up there, you're not allowed to talk. So I guess, what do they look like? or what have you experienced in those systems? Because I think that if we're honest, by and large, what we'll see is, and I know that when my daughter was in middle school, and my daughter talks a lot, I don't know where she got it from. But anyway, she talks a lot. And so she got silent lunch as a consequence. And what that looked like for her is that she they had a table in the lunch room that she had to sit at, silently. And I saw what that experience was, because really, it was just public shaming, right, you know, go set those students at a table where everybody can see them. Everybody knows that they did something, isolate them. And don't let them have voice. I mean, that's the truth of it. No, I'm not. That's like just observably true. Sometimes, so it's like this whole, you know, social and we think social embarrassment will be away. And so that kind of goes to this. This timeline. Again, I'm just kind of putting a few things but you could add so so much to this. But when we think about when we say we're going to remove you from a community, so I was in all Ed and I always tried to explain that even though I think that my alternative education program ended up being a sanctuary. You It was built on being trauma informed and responsive, we relationship forward and prioritized. My biggest problem is students didn't want to leave, because it became such a sanctuary for them. But at the end of the day, the the price of them being rejected and exiled from a community was very part of it as they didn't want to go back to that community because they no longer felt they were welcomed to that community. And so that kind of originates, in my opinion, from, you know, going all the way back to Skinner, BF Skinner, which all of us in education, learned about probably in our foundational courses, if you apply an undesirable punishment, it will decrease or weaken a specific specific behavior. So if my daughter dislikes sitting, and being humiliated, and sitting silently, she won't engage in the behavior that got her there anymore, it will be uncomfortable enough. So and then, as we move forward, you can see out of school suspension, really, we've had that around for a really long time. And I kind of just, you know, we've had that around since the 1960s. And here we are, you know, still really using it excessively, and my again, my opinion. And then I also included some some data about some different suspension rates, we've seen like a, an increase in the use of suspension. There was a time in the 1980s, you know, that our president said that we just need some good old fashion and we get used the word discipline, and said, We're gonna have the zero tolerance policies, and that was so influential in our school discipline, and, and then we looked at data, and we found that it didn't work, it was not improving, or making schools any safer. It wasn't improving, actually, quite to the contrary. And so now what we see is, you know, schools will have zero tolerance policies for you know, weapons, like really serious though, like, that's the only thing we have. And then this is the semantics game, I believe. Because we actually do have embedded zero tolerance, we're seeing more and more zero tolerance for behaviors, like dress code, or saying something disrespectful, that it's an automatic suspension. So you might not call it zero tolerance. But in actuality, the consequence is zero tolerance. And then, you know, and guy could give you all kinds of data about seclusion and restraint, but even in 19, states, it will never just, it makes my mind just go read to think that in 19, states, they can still use corporal punishment. So I think about like, where are we today? Right? Like, where's that suspension rate, and I don't know about in your school, I really don't know about near school. But I suspect when we can crunch some numbers for the last two years, we're gonna see suspension rates have really, really increased. And so I'll come back in a year and if I was wrong, but from what I can tell, and remind my experience, and from talking to so many colleagues across the country, the behavioral challenges that we're seeing, and this is where Laurie decibel wrote, she has a brand new book out intentional neuroplasticity plasticity, and I am reading it. And I cannot tell you, you've got to get a copy of it, because she's talking about, you know, where we like this where we are today, and sort of like living in this post COVID life like we're not the same. And I think that we're gonna, we're gonna see that data soon. Because I think that all of us are experienced, and again, if you are not experienced, and we all want to hear from you, because in my experience, the behavior challenges last year and this year, have exponentially grown from what they were before. So I also want to say that sometimes again, with semantically, we think of things like positive behavior intervention systems, but just know, even though it has the word positive and behavior, there's also a lot of data about using systems like token economy cuz I know, like I was talking to a colleague who was, you know, if you had gotten a certain number of, you know, of the specific money, you know, you could access going to the gym. And I know, it's like, we're gonna reward the kids who are doing the right thing. But I also think, having community having purposeful movement, being able to interact, like that shouldn't be something that you're denied, because that is only going to help. So that's young, I maybe I'm on a soapbox, and but I just know, like in our suspension rates, there's still huge disproportionality, it's not an equitable system. If you are a black girl, you are going to be suspended at a much higher rate than any other group. If you have an IEP, you're going to be suspended at a much higher rate. And it goes on and on for groups that are disproportionately suspended. So you know, these are things and it feeds the school to prison pipeline. And that, again, data validated, it's not my opinion, it's just truth. And that's just where we are. So as I moved to alpha, the history lesson, I just wanted to say that, again, my English teacher self, the root of the word discipline, is about learning. And the root of the word punishment is about suffering. So if you go look up, you know, where did the root of that word come from? It means to suffer. Discipline is about learning. And what you'll see here is an if you remember the slide that we had before about learning being in that prefrontal cortex. First up, you're going to see, write down revelations and education. Again, Lori Desautels site is absolutely so full of resources, she gives so much away, she doesn't keep anything a secret, she is just the most sharing person. And so you can go there and find things that you can use today, right now. And as guy was saying, I'm starting this process, and I'm working through with Dr. Bruce Perry. But you can see here from the neuro sequential network, the cycle of learning, and I want you to look at the words and the cycle of learning and think about school discipline, and if any of those words would be words, you put on the list for how you would describe school discipline. Because I, I daresay, I'm not sure that a lot of our school discipline systems currently, those are the words that anybody would use to describe them. But again, those are required. So it can be a learning process, we want it to be a learning process, it has to be considered almost like a content area, right? Like, that's how I look at discipline as an administrator. When I left teaching English, I now think of myself as a teacher, in the realm of discipline, I get to use it as an opportunity to come beside students and help them get into this cycle of learning. And as you see Jim spore later, who is featured in paper, tigers, if you haven't ever seen that documentary, but he talks about this being whether this is a me with you or me against you approach, and so I was looking at it, it's going to be a me with you, and I get to facilitate your learning as part of this process. And then you can see all the different things that come with our prefrontal cortex. And of course, that is what we send children to school for right? To be able to be in that learning ready brain state. And to be in that cycle of learning. And I think that traditional disciplinary systems, compromise all of that. So this is, you know, we think about how we address any content area, like since I was an English teacher, we invest in helping to provide learning for our staff. We look at data to see how our students are doing in that area. We invest funding towards it because we want students to be able to have innovative approaches and engagement in content areas. So we don't do that when it comes to decimal because I don't think we look at it as As a content, we don't look at it from a learning opportunity within our buildings. So again, I'm just going to keep saying and evoking Laurie Desautels name. mean, she is truly a queen. I don't know what to say other than that. But there are the plot education or science is based on four pillars, and this is a framework, it's not a checklist, it is a framework, it is how we approach once you, you know it, you embody the framework. And so as I move forward in my day, these are the four pillars. And truly again, behavior is communication. It encourages, and honors listening to our bodies, which are always trying to keep us safe and protected. And so I wanted to give you I love this visual, because we think about these roots, and these building these really strong, strong roots for children. And there's some great videos on Lori's site where you see children engaging in this learning. And I think about those children going forward into middle school, high school adulthood, and the roots that they are going to have that are going to keep them so strong, and so resilient. So I wanted to, though focus really on the educator, nervous system, because and whether you want to say put your own mask on first, I said, drop your own pen first. I think it really does start with us, as adults, we are the ones who are building these systems of discipline, we are are the ones that have for the most part fully developed. Brains, I know, some of us are really young, you know, it could be up until like the 30s. Right. And this, another great book is called Beyond behaviors, Dr. Mona della hook. And she says many of the paradigms are helping children with persistent behavior challenges target the children's or child's behavior, but leave us adults out of the equation. And again, that's back to that we need to fix broken children. And I don't think they're broken. And I don't think they need to be fixed. And so I know that what do I every day have control of the most myself. And so I would say, this kind of is where to start? Where do I start? And it starts with looking deeply within ourselves. And this is, again, I'm giving you I'm hopefully to give you some different resources here. Because I know like sometimes, like you've come to the table, and you need to have the resources so that you can start the process, you can start the reflection. And so with this, what you're going to notice is if you start at the beginning, and this is that finding the why. And I know so many of us, Matthew portail talks about, you know how we should all have our own personal mission statement, which I think is when I sat down to do that for myself, again, it was a really wonderful opportunity, because I have to kind of revisit that often when I am having my own dysregulation, or I'm having a really challenging day, week month. Like, why am I doing this? What do I believe? And if you notice, like the first what is it 123456 items are all focused on in this process of finding the why. And guiding your interventions all relate to the adult. All of the first six steps are about the adult. And so we really have to be starting with ourselves. So this is the book that guy was talking about it's worry deciles most recent book, I haven't finished it. I cannot we're gonna have a book study guide mentioned ginger Healy, who's on this call. And so it is I'm so excited about this book. I'm excited about all of our books, but this is the one I'm reading right now. And again, when I tell you if you go to revelations and education where Lori puts so many resources, one of the great things that she has on that site are reflective questions, questions that you individually can work through, and then you can work through collaboratively with teams to solve To help you start, I guess seeing very sincerely what your discipline system is and is not. So it kind of starts with, and I thought these questions were really powerful. And again, this is a process. As I said, I'm a fellow traveler. So this is a process I'm putting myself through, because I just want to recheck myself, because I have been engaged in so much change within the last year. And so I need to recheck myself. So you have to consider your own values, your own perspective, your own, you know, biases. So in looking at how were you disciplined as a child, and what were you discipline the most for? You know, what do you remember when you think about discipline? And going back to again, thinking about since your sensations, your feelings, what, you know, what did you experience? What words come to mind? How did you repair with adults? Or even did you? I mean, sometimes I know, I've talked to one of my colleagues says, you know, she was always she cried, it was always like, you know, we sometimes or have a child in school was crying, we're like, stop crying, stop crying. And it's like, why, why? Why do we do that. And sometimes it goes back to our discipline that our own parents, you know, crying was like, not really accepted, or even come from a cultural perspective, crying was not acceptable. So we're actually telling children to ignore how your body wants to handle the overwhelm and the stress and the dysregulation. And we think like, we're being kind and nurturing, like, Oh, don't cry, it's okay. But sometimes, you know, I'm kind of become like a cry ambassador, I'm like, cry it out, like, let like, you know, there is stress, you know, hormones, and those tears, like, let's just get it out, like, like, get it out to cry on. And if they cry hard enough, I might cry with them. And it's good for all of us, we're going to be okay. But we can't deny that our own experiences are again, going to absolutely influence what we are doing now and what we how we respond. So, again, some of us have past generations, it was absolutely unacceptable to go into a building and be wearing a hat much less like wearing a hoodie, right? And so sometimes, like, if you're in that generation, and you see a teenager come into a building, and they have their hoodie, it feels like it's so disrespectful. Now, I've kind of started I'm like, How is wearing a hoodie, connected to respect or lack thereof? And so sometimes I think I think it's just a generational, that's just how we were raised. That's just what was said. And maybe there is some history behind it. I've never been able to find it. But you know, because I look at that sometimes like that child might be that might be a self soothing behavior, when they put the hood up, that's them trying to isolate that's them trying to create a safe space, that's them giving me assign that something might be going on with them. But again, depending on how we ourselves were raised, it might be you know, yeah, and I think gender is just posted hoodies are a flight are often a flight response. I mean, that's they can't actually leave the classroom, but they can't escape by, you know, pulling up their hood. So again, it's just in terms of some of those perceptions and thoughts are all rooted in. And so much of our discipline system is rooted in who created that discipline system, who was that system created for? And that's why it's not working. And that's why there's disproportionality it was never created for and to work for everyone. It was not created to be inclusive. Yeah, like I again, hoodies, obviously you can tell like, that's a that's a topic for me like, like, I love a hoodie. So my I have I have a ninth grader, like she is forever, like, hoodie up. And she is in no way intending it to be disrespectful to anyone. It's not about anyone outside of herself. It's about what's going on, internally for her. It's it's not about me, it's about her. So, again, just cannot speak highly enough that I have this book. I can just tell you already. I've been highlighting underlining, you know, it's amazing. And those questions, I think, and then this is another set of questions to take it again to that next step. And I put a mirror here because again, I think it's just about look in the mirror. It's Oh, Hey, it's okay to be and feel uncomfortable with this. Because I think there's going to be growth and that discomfort, I think there's going to be change in that discomfort. And so and they're hard questions, they are some hard questions. And some of the questions like, look at me, I'm even touching my neck right now, or I'm like, Cool, some of the questions are intense, and they're hard. But they're so powerful. And I do believe they will elicit change. I think, you know, if you come to a table, where you're going to openly discuss these, like, you do have to establish and build some trust, because there's a lot of vulnerability that you have to be willing to have. But again, I think that is going to be where the change and doing something different, you know, disrupting the system is going to it's going to live. So I wanted to share them with you, again, you can find all of these questions. And you can say with me, Laurie DESA. Tell. So and then this is the, again, I'm trying to go from the individual kind of like pulling it pulling, pulling the frame out a little bit from being kind of like very, very much about myself, my past, pulling out the lens to myself, and where we are sort of at a smaller level, and then now questions to ask really about the policies and practices within. And most of us have codes of conduct that had been created, you know, every once in a while, they might have something added or tweaked, but they have, by and large been around for a really long time. So sometimes they'll you know, as different states have said, we want to move towards not using exclusionary discipline more, sometimes they'll have some things added, but again, they get thrown in there. And like if you put restorative practices in there, the thing about that is most teachers, even most administrators, have not had a lot of learning, you know, focused on restorative practices, and how to implement those and what those look like and what those can accomplish. And, and again, if we looked at it, like a content area, we would provide all of the supports for someone that we wanted to teach a certain, you know, content, we would want to make sure they were kind of like an expert in that content before we said, Go in there and put it in place. And then here is my little, as we said, today, this is my little pocket portail. That's what Dustin and ginger called him today. Matthew portail. Again, another person that I would say has been an amazing resource for me, and I think would be for anybody who has met him. He is very open and is very generous to give information and provide support. asking the hard questions, finding the truth and the data because that's where I know I'm at right now I need to really look hard at the data. Because it's going to when I was in alternative education. When I started number crunching, there was disproportionality. It was there and the numbers. Again, it wasn't about, you know, an opinion. That was the truth of it. There was disproportionality, I could look to see, this is a zero tolerance. It's not a matter of a weapon, or drugs. But when we talk about chronic students being excluded because of chronic behavior, what is that chronic behavior is probably going to be defined disrespect or disruption. Those three Ds are referrals that are constantly constantly generated in my world, and so we'll put it under chronic discipline. And then we'll say if you have a certain number of referrals for this, you know, behavior, then you're going to be suspended. Even if we look at the individual behaviors, and again, they are not causing anyone to be unsafe. They are not. They're minor offenses in and of themselves. So and then the reason I put Matthew tell or Matthew Portela or their mayor pocket, Matthew Patel, is he has the hashtag disruptors unite. We got to disrupt the status quo because it's just not working and we're not seeing learning. We're not seeing learning in the way I know that is the data isn't supporting. We're seeing learning. We're not seeing seeing students um Coming back from what we call discipline, actually not engaging in that same behavior. If you think about your students that probably experienced the disciplinary practices and policies the most, they're telling us as they keep repeating that same behavior, that whatever we've put in place is not about learning because they continue to engage in it. Because it's really about communication. And I like you're not hearing me, you're not hearing me. So and this is probably the biggest question I get. Because I think, again, when we start talking about so much discipline is about adult comfort, adult control. And it feels really, really scary to think sort of outside the box. And so this is not, it's like, what is the root of this question? When you say the word accountability? What does that mean? What actually, do you mean, when you say, What about accountability? Because like, Oh, we're just gonna let them get away with it. If I let them get away with it, then others are going to see that and then they're going to engage in it. You know, I had one time a teacher said, If I let a student sleep, then a student's when I think that's okay. And I was like, Do you think that if you let one student sleep, and again, by the way, I usually just ask the question, and I usually am stunned by the response for students sometimes, because some of them are like, I was up until four in the morning, because and then they'll tell me something really horrible. And I'm always, like, I can't believe you're at school right now. Like, that's, their stories continue to show me what amazing children they are. They, they're still present in our class. But yeah, they were up till three in the morning, because, you know, they're, you know, single mom was sick, and they had to go to the hospital or whatever the story is, but I've never seen like that happen. I just never have like, you know, okay, so that you let that students lead. And then the next day 30 students put their head down their desk, and they're like, We're all sleeping. I just haven't seen that happen. But what does accountability mean to you? I mean, what is the outcome you're seeking? So if the outcome you're seeking, if you're getting that, then it's working. But I reason I put eyes on, like, if we continue to do the same thing over and over not getting the outcomes we want? Then like, right, isn't that like, just insanity? So I just I think like, what are the outcomes you're seeking? And are your current practices moving you closer to that? Or are you stagnating, or they're moving you further from what you ultimately want to see as a result? And that's where I think you have to do the data mining, you have to come on a regular and frequent basis together. We used to come together as a disciplinary evaluation team, to really look at our tier two and tier three students, and to talk about what interventions we were putting in place. What were we seeing in terms of their attendance and their grades and whether they were getting more or less discipline? response? And I mean, again, it told us it's either working or it wasn't. And if it wasn't working, then why will we continue to do that same thing. And I also love doretta Hamon talks about being a warm demander James Moffat talks about firm compassion, this is not about not setting boundaries, not having expectations, we find great comfort and predictability. So it's not about any of a lack of any of those things. But I think, again, we miss understand or we look at, again, if we don't do something that makes us feel like we as adults are more in control, and are compliance driven, then we aren't holding students accountable. And I don't I don't think that that is the case. So here's the part where I just wanted to offer some some different tools and things that you know, are kind of like where I'm at. And as I said, I'm a fellow traveler, and I'm having to kind of go through this process myself. So these are the questions that I kind of, again, I made this visual for myself, so I'm just sharing it with you. You can I mean, again, it might not work for you. But before I move forward and consider whether a student, what consequence I'm going to give them I moved through this process myself. And it kind of just becomes now like I don't have to like look at the vision and be like step one. I really just have it embedded in again, my philosophy of trying to think, have I considered what the student is trying to communicate with their behavior. And what their brainstem state is, at the time that they were behaving that way. And this is where Amy fast is out in Oregon. And she said, and I love this, and I screenshotted this so long ago and kept it. She says, I took Brene Brown's advice and asked a student, the story, I'm telling myself a bot about why you're behaving this way not doing the work is where am I getting it wrong? And her response, changed the trajectory of our whole interaction and plan moving forward, take time to ask. And so that's where I don't have to guess sometimes, actually, all the time, I always want to have the student have an opportunity to give voice to what they're experiencing? And then tell me from their perspective. And because again, it's about them, it's not about me, you'll you'll see, will the plan consequence, elicit learning and connection or control and resentment? And again, that's going back what what place? What brain state? Is it going to put them in? What can I see? Like, from what is happening? am I considering my own brain and body state, my own implicit bias and my own triggers? Because there are certain behaviors, there might be certain times of days, there might be certain students that you have very little tolerance for. And so are you reactionary, to those behaviors, more so than any others? I have, you know, sometimes it's like, I have teachers, like, if you say call them bra, you know, we have students will be like, call an adult bra. And I have some that that is absolutely, like the greatest disrespect, and it's definitely a trigger, I can see that that's a trigger, whereas others, you know, they're like, hey, brah, back, you know, like, they don't see that that's just not, that's not as big of an issue for them. What have I considered whether consequent will elicit the outcomes I want based on data and trends. And again, that's where that is an overall that's a process that sometimes you yourself, have to look at your own your own data, I can look at the students that I serve it across a grade level, but you can also look across a school across the division is the planned consequence proportional to the behavior. I mean, sometimes like the behavior is, again, we'll just use the hoodie as an example. So that's like way down here. It's really not impacting anyone else in a classroom, it's not stopping the teacher from teaching, it's not stopping anybody else from learning. But if the student has done it three times, so all of a sudden, it's not a hoodie, it's about defiance. So then we're like, okay, you've done it three times. And now you're chronically defined as a result of being chronically defiant. This is your really big consequence, which at the end of the day, the behavior was a hoodie, but yet the consequences really about major defiance, and we're going to be like, okay, so you're in school suspension for a full day, you're going to miss all seven of your classes. So that's that proportional behavior. And I can't answer these for you. I mean, obviously, you can tell where I kind of lie on these. But you have to be able to come to your own place of comfort for these. kind of consider whether consequence serves the system, or serves a student. That's one of my favorite ones. Does it serve as See, I told them, I'm right here, my phone's ringing. And am I choosing this consequence? Because I lack access to or understanding of alternatives? So again, I don't have restorative practice. I don't know what restorative practices look like, I don't feel comfortable using restorative practices, I don't have access to what I need to make restorative practices happen, for instance. So and that's an adult issue. That's not an that's a system issue. That's not where students should be punished because of that. That's our problem to solve, not for kids to deal with that. Again, just wanted to give you some resources, some additional things. I love this tiered support because a lot of us are in MTSS school divisions or schools and so I love this visual about putting in supports by tiers and different things that you can can use. It also references Bruce Perry's regulate, relate and reason. In the disciplinary process. Sometimes we often go right over regulate and relate to reason and we start asking a student why they did what they did. Do they understand, you know, that you know, the harm that they've done when they're in a disarray? deleted state and it only serves to dysregulate them more. And then we see that as them again, willfully choosing even more challenging behavior, when we really we've kind of again, we have fostered that because we've skipped right over them regulating and relating, because learning comes in that reason part, we have to have them in a brain state that they can hear us, they can engage with us just like with any other learning. Instead of in school provision, I just said suspension in general, if we looked at it as intervention and prevention, it might change because the word suspend in of itself is to, you know, to me means exclusion. So if we looked at it, what can we do to intervene, and what can we do to prevent, and that's where I see things like SEL, the power and SEL, the powerful in incorporating mindfulness and other strategies that help students when they are struggling, opportunities to build community and small groups. Instead of adult school suspension, again, being able to invest in how we bring restorative practice learning and knowledge into our schools. When a student engages in something, giving them opportunities to reflect with targeted learning, having them and could doing that beside and with them, just like we would as a teacher in a guided learning way, and moving them into an independent learning way. So these are just some again, I just don't want you to, I wanted to offer some some suggestions that I'm considering that I've tried, that I have found success with. One of the things that I've had staff do when they're in a regulated state, this is not something you do when a student is or a staff member is in a dysregulated state, because they have to come to this, when they can really be reflected, is having an emotional regulation plan, because you can really help. It can really help. So when we see a student moving into a dysregulated state where they might make behavioral choices that could lead them into the discipline process. It gives us some strategies that we can co regulate, we can come up beside, we can offer them supports, and things that ultimately again, will prevent because that's that's where you want to be right. We want to actually get to the we're we're preventing it from even going into the discipline cycle if we can. But this is again, something that not just for students, but for adults, too, because, again, we're starting with ourselves. And right now we have a lot of dysregulated adults. for lots of reasons, our profession has got a lot of pressure. And it's been really taxed right now, in a lot of different areas. So and that's actually that is it. That was from that's that's my little placeholder slide. So that's what I have to say about all that.
Guy Stephens:Hey, Joe, Jodi, thank you so much. That was fantastic.
Unknown:I'm over here on a soapbox. I know,
Guy Stephens:well, it's okay. And you know, you're passionate about and I think for good reason. I have a couple of thoughts. We have a couple of questions here. We want to pause, and just let people know. If you're watching, now's a great time to put a question in if you haven't already. We have and even if you have you put in another question if you want to. So if you have any questions, go ahead and put them in the chat now. And we'll try to get those in a moment. There were a couple of things that struck me and well, the first thing I had to say is that the pocket portal, okay, so, you know, I think we need to take this a step further. I think we need like a deck of cards, and we have a pocket portail then we have a pocket Laurie, we have a pocket. Jodi Whoo. You know, with a picture of everybody and something they can help us out with throughout the day. We can, you know, we market that to all of our all of our colleagues here. But I love the pocket Portela just sounded like a lot of fun. It reminds me like the the Flat Stanley right. There was that the you know, thing so. So question wise, you know, aside from my just love of that idea of the pocket Pradel you know, this journey that you've been on, and I love kind of the fellow traveler. And I think that's a great description, because I think there's so many people that, you know, I meet and talk to that are on this journey and you know, maybe at various places and I think the first really important thing to realize is it is a journey, right? You know, you've not arrived at your destination and just kind of like here it all is, even when we think about the the people that you've talked to you talked about even very In fact, I was looking here and I think Lori's behind me somewhere. But a bit about Laurie and Ken mentioned back here today. Yeah, there you go. Bye You know, one of the things that I hear from Laurie a lot is kind of that thought that, you know, like, when she's writing these books, she's going in the classroom, she's working with educators, she's working with students, she's always learning. So this journey is one of always learning. I think, if we lose the curiosity, you know, we maybe this isn't the journey for us anymore. But I think that's really important. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about kind of your, the spark, okay, so, you know, you've been doing, you know, you've been an advocate education for a long time, you know, the system, you know, the you mentioned, kind of the system mean, broken. So coming into a system that was, you know, broken, learning a lot of the things that were being done that aren't helping I think about zero tolerance, I think about a lot of the approaches. In your I mean, can you look at it and move in a time where you kind of felt like, Oh, this isn't working, you know, this isn't doing what we want to do? Was there a spark that you can really remember that kind of ignited you on this journey? And what was it from there that really kind of kept things going? Well, I mean, I
Unknown:think that when I became an administrator, and just the same students kept coming back and coming back and coming back. And, you know, I just stopped and I thought, you know, and then, you know, there was also this, especially in the My first year when I had to, like deep dive, like, Do I even want to do this, because I felt like I was, again, I was more about the guidelines and like, okay, like, you did it again. So now we're gonna ratchet it up again, and you're back, we're doing this it out. And I just thought I, it's felt, so I felt so unsettled. And, and again, it just was not working. Because if I, if I maintain myself as an educator, so what regardless of what role or capacity, we're all educators, right, like, that's what we are. And I was like, there, I'm not teaching, they're not learning. This is not working. And then I just would see, again, the same students being suspended. And then I would see their I would look at their grades. And I'm like, Well, of course, their grades are in the gutter, because they're not here. Alright. And then I think it goes back to, I think there's this great quote about, you know, kids who can't read, we don't send them home and say, figure it out, and come back, you know, I'm like, but a student who is engaging in behavior, we're like, I'm gonna suspend you, I want you to go home and think about that, worked it out, and you come back, right, and I, and so it just none of it made any, like, logical sense. But I think I just remember in those first years, you know, I said, I might not be in a classroom, but I have my own class of kids, it's the same kids coming back over and over. So I just in that way, and even just with my own my own children's experience, I kind of mentioned that and just seeing, I think somebody mentioned like the, the putting their name on the board, or putting checks beside your name. And I just know, I look back at my oldest daughter, and that's when the behavior charts and everyday she would come home, and I would, I didn't know better than like, when you know, better you do better? Yep. Maya says it. The stress and anxiety every day, because I thought I was doing a good thing by checking her agenda is water cooler. And she can talk she can tell me now because we she, you know, she's in this world with me in terms of conversation. And she's like, it was so anxiety inducing. It was so anxiety inducing. And, and goodness, if she got a yellow at 830 actually sat in that anxiety all day, you're gonna see a yellow and you got a yellow.
Guy Stephens:So, yep, you know, yeah, I remember getting the crumbled up behavior sheets, you know, or the behavior sheets that, you know, my son had had changed, because he wasn't happy about, but But you know, who wouldn't? Right? You know, and, you know, fortunately, things are changing. I mean, I don't know about you, but I feel. I feel like even though these are really tough times, there's some positive things out there happening. We're seeing people, you know, ditch the clip charts and some of these things. You know, I mean, portail always talks about a kind of the public shaming of a clip chart, you know, okay, well, which of my staff people want to have a clip chart about how they're doing today? So we're making some progress, for sure. But these are tough times. And you you pointed out, I think, well, you know, with a pandemic, with everything that's going on these, these have been really tough times for educators. And during tough times. Our brain pathways sometimes go to familiar approaches, even though they're not working. And you had that kind of Einstein. You know, we keep doing the same thing, even though it's not working. But that happens when things are tough. So, you know, we're hearing around the country where people are having a difficult Time in classrooms and where they're seeing an increase in behaviors. Well, what's the reaction? The reaction is, oh, well, we need more of this punitive discipline, we need more suspension, expulsion. We need, you know, old fashioned discipline, whatever you call it, we had a school district earlier this year, that brought back corporal punishment after 20 years of having gone. So and, you know, you sometimes hear, you know, from from those that might not be in the same place in their journey, but, you know, they want and you probably heard this, as an administrator, they want to send somebody to the office for a consequence, they want something to happen to them. Because, you know, they did whatever they did in the classroom, so they want to send to an administrator and have the administrator suspend or expel or somehow, you know, do something to the individual for what happened. And I'm really concerned during these times that there are going to be places that move in the totally wrong direction. So what do you what do you say to a young educator, a young, you know, young educator getting started in their career, who, you know, maybe hasn't been introduced to some of these ideas? How do you begin to make the shift?
Unknown:So I think it's a great question. And I think that that's where making sure as a school leader, and you know, me wanting to, again, talk to school leaders, as much as I can I know a lot of us are, because in order to support our, you know, and can I just say, we are desperate for people to come into our profession, right? We are desperate right now, our profession, we're not what the need is so far greater than who is coming in, to fill that need. And we have so many who are choosing retirement because it is so, so tough. But I think that's where we have to start with teaching them about their own brain and body state. I mean, I can't emphasize enough that when I learned about and started being able to consider my own self, so deeply, when I think about those first years of teaching, and how every behavior felt like a personal attack with me, and the stress that caused and so like, how do you shift from it feeling personal to our businesses, personal, weird, a deeply personal business of you know, humanity, but behaviors are not, don't take those personally. And I think that's where if we can, for me, like, because I think somebody said, Do I get a lot of pushback? Yes, I'm gonna be real straight up with you. Like, it's, it's yes. And I said, the question is, you're not holding kids accountable, you're being really soft on them, you know, all of those things. And, first of all, that presumes that I don't want to see kids thrive, I don't want to see kids grow, I don't want to set them up for success in the future. And those I again, I don't believe that's what we come to the table for all of us are striving for that with our, with our children. And so but I do get pushback, because it's kind of scary, right? Because you it's like losing a little bit control. But once you feel as the science of it, I think that takes the fear out, actually. So that's where that investment, if you look at it as a content area, and I guess that's where, you know, doing that work, of how can we look at this as a content area, then you'll invest in it? Right?
Guy Stephens:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I've been thinking and kind of sharing a lot this, this idea that just keeps coming back to me, which is this idea that a little bit of brain science and the right perspective, or Outlook can make such a huge difference. And I mean, you know, you you when you talked about, like people looking at all behavior being intentional. You know, the truth is, we have science now, that tells us that, you know, that's not the case, not all behaviors are intentional, you know, the, the polyvagal theory, knowing that things might be kind of bottom up or being, you know, really kind of brought by our nervous systems. So there's so much information out there that I think can really help. Yeah, but But it's hard. It's shifts. Shifts are hard. It's
Unknown:hard. It's hard. I don't want to be one to sit here and say, like, I guess it's, it's, it is hard, but it's so worth it. It's so worth it, and it helps you like for my own health and wellness. So, again, it's like that whole like self care. It's about collective care. Again, that's a that's a that's a pocket foretell moment too. He talks about not out here. Self care, but like collective care as being able to lean in on each other. I think, you know, having community humans are not wanting to be isolated that's not biologically designed. And so, again, I I know I'm not trying to simplify it. But there's so many resources. I am not a neuroscientist, nor do I play one on TV. But this is all so accessible. And there are ways to make it's once you start even hearing little pieces, the shift starts happening. I and I go I'm one, there's a lot of others that are, I will be happy to talk to anybody about this share resources, people have asked what I will share anything I have. Absolutely, if I can help. I didn't get here alone. And I want to hopefully,
Guy Stephens:like, yeah, hit well. And that's the amazing thing about, you know, I, you know, I feel like I've had the the privilege to, you know, kind of find a community out there of like minded people that are doing this work, you know, you know, people like you and Matthew and, and so many others out there that are doing this work, and really are wanting to share and wanting to help. And, you know, speaking of which, you know, you've talked about Laurie a lot. And of course, Lori was here on the call. Yeah, yep, yep, yep. And had several comments, driving, but what was listening occasionally would comment, hopefully, hopefully, in a safe way. But you know, people, people in this community, kind of showing up and being part of these things, it's really important. I know, we're almost out of time here. But let me see if I can get to a couple of comments. If you're okay with that, I'm gonna come in and turn off the lights on you. I know that in fact, here was another thing from Laurie. This is about the adults, or discipline referrals more about certain behaviors or staff behaviors. And that's
Unknown:a great comment, because what am I saying behaviors, communication, not just behavior, children. So sometimes I can look at a referral and be like, That teacher or I can look at eight referrals from the same teacher and say, they they are communicating, too, they need support, they need something, also. And so again, this is not when I say you know, about adult, so we can, but yeah, sometimes referrals Tell me a really powerful story about where a staff member is,
Guy Stephens:yeah. And, you know, I'm a proponent of raw screens work, and the idea that kids do well if they can, and the same holds true of our teachers and our staff, right? Teachers do well, if they can. And, you know, I think that the primary difference between an educator and a student is really about brain development, that a child, a very young child, especially, you know, our brains don't fully developed, or were 25 or 30 years old, you know, there's a predictable pattern of brain development, which leaves our prefrontal cortex being kind of last to get fully baked. And, you know, kind of taking that into account. You know, kids aren't miniature adults, they don't have the same, you know, they don't have the same experiences and whatnot. But at the same time, you know, when you look at our needs, when you look at how we should be supported, it's the same, you know, whether you're talking about a child or an adult. Yeah, so important. So let me get through a couple of others here. Trisha, a parent in Idaho, where parents in Idaho have been promoting their tier two and tier three approaches must include restraints and seclusion, falsely believing the kids behaving behave badly, with no warning. How do I respond to this? Do you have any thoughts? I've got a couple of thoughts that pop out. But
Unknown:yeah, I mean, I yeah, I think your thoughts I've been, again, I'm gonna say what the most powerful part of this has been for all of the pushback is I can rely on science and data and sometimes those that are the most resistant or the least receptive. The science and the data have it has challenged their thinking and has allowed them to take pause. So I think with this one, I would say there's an you can probably start giving lots of information about what research and data that we have. That tells us the impact of restraint and seclusion.
Guy Stephens:Right, right. Well, yeah, and my first response, and I won't go long here, but is that restraint. Seclusion should not be part of here to interventions. I mean, restraint. Seclusion are designed to be crisis management interventions, and should not be part of a behavioral intervention plan or any of that, you know, it's crisis management, I don't think seclusion is ever a reasonable approach period. And restraint should be rare. It should only happen if a child is really posing a life threatening situation. So when you begin to plan these things, unfortunately, you will use them more. And when you use them more, of course, that's going to lead to trauma, that trauma is going to lead to changes in the brain that change in the brain is going to lead to an increase probably in stress related behaviors. So you know, when you're planning to do these things, you will do them when you do them, you will probably lead to a child that is more stressed, doesn't feel safe and is likely to have behavior. So I think there's a lot and Tricia certainly can talk more about this with you if you're interested. But there's a lot wrong with the idea of putting them as tier two and three interventions. have, you know, these should not be planned, you know, responses?
Unknown:We can look at the word intervention, what is an intervention? Does it match that also, in terms of back to those reflective questions for those parents? Like where, where? Where are they making a connection that this is going to get the outcome thereafter, like there's, you've got to kind of like, have them build that story, or the story, they're telling themselves that this is going to lead to this and this, because I think if you have them voice that you'll find where you can disrupt and interrupt that. Actually, here, let me quite honestly, and again, with semantic wise, I just think also, just one more musician made me think of like the wording, inclusion and seclusion and semantically, again, we sometimes have things that we give great names to like, that's a cool down room, when really it's just about putting a kid at a room behind the door by themselves to like, again, be isolated, and to bring about a sense of intrusive control on them. But we all have to calm down room but again, do they calm down in there so don't demand handsome magically for so
Guy Stephens:yeah. And we see that a lot. We see that a lot with restraint, seclusion, and it kind of confuses it confuses parents, you know, we hear things like oh, well, you know, restraint is therapeutic. It's not, you know, physical restraint is an intent, you know, intervention, intended to save a life and in a crisis situation. We're not talking about a hug, that's an entirely different thing. When people begin to kind of obfuscate things with the wording they use. It really does a disservice to everybody. And I can't tell you how many, you know, Blue Room coolroom. Somebody sent me a picture today. Well, not today yesterday, of a seclusion room. They called it Alaska. You know, here, kids that will probably forever have some trauma related to Alaska, and not know why if they're being put in the seclusion against their will, you know, all sorts of interesting things that people do. What matters is the function, you know,
Unknown:oh, sorry. One more thing is it reminded me Jessica Harris, and you know, Jessica to and she's a teacher in Indiana, and we're trying out this new teachers, you were asking that question. And I just have to tell you this, I this is a new strategy that she uses. Again, I think, if you ever heard Matthew Patel will talk about it sometimes because he has kind of seen it and action. But they have a system in her school for the adults that if the adult is in a state, they have enough, they've given enough understanding to the adults, that the adult is in a state where they need a break. They have like a call out system. Yep. So they have a whole system built to say, if you as an adult, need a minute, because you're becoming dysregulated. Like this is it? And I am obsessed with like that I'm thinking yes. So when I when I think about that, for those new teachers you were talking about or any any teacher, a system like that, that puts in place that again, says we value, you as a human, we know that all of us have this happen within ourselves. And here's how we can approach it really, in a positive preventative way. So I just want to give a shout out because that's something that I am wanting to explore more for implementation because I think it sounds amazing.
Guy Stephens:I actually talked to a administrator in Montana today, who was using a very similar strategy. And they actually had something on their phone, like a button on their phone that they were able to push, like some kind of app. So they didn't have to go to the walkies that it had to say anything. They could just push it, it would it would notify other people and without being, you know, calling attention to the child or others that they needed help. And what a great thing to do. Yeah, absolutely. Let's see, Junya, as the slides can be sent to our email or okay, can people reach out to you? Is there an email or an address that people can make?
Unknown:Sure my email is as I would like sending, you're saying, I have so many right I have my work email, I have my personal email. I'm like I'm Jody J place at Gmail would be the best one. You can also reach out to me on Twitter, if you want to send me your contact information on Twitter, I'm on Twitter.
Guy Stephens:And I also have your I'm gonna paste your address.
Unknown:That'd be great. However, it's best for you to interact with me but yeah, I of course. Absolutely. Of course. I will. If you find it will be helpful. I would love to share with you.
Guy Stephens:And a couple more here. I don't know if you notice but our our friend Dustin is here and Dustin talked about, you know, my own personal practices changed when I became more reflective and included my students in this conversation. So important thing collaboration is so important. Instead of making an assumption that I know what's going on inviting into the process is so very important. Dustin also mentioned the need for breaks throughout the day. And of course lesson he presented here recently And because I know that you guys present together, sometimes, I told us and we've already booked it, we've already booked back and present with Dustin, which will be a lot of fun, it will be
Unknown:a lot of fun because we love getting a chance to work together, even though he's in Kansas, I'm in Virginia. And that's let me just tell anybody who's watching this, there is a network out there. And there's a network that wants to bring you in, and we want to support you support each other. Again, I'm still learning and growing. And we all can bring something and so just know, in terms of hope, if you feel very alone, because I've been there where I feel very, very alone in this work. And there's a whole network of people that just want to be there for each other. So,
Guy Stephens:which is fantastic. And, and of course, I think there's a couple places where where people can connect to that, of course, Matthew portail has the trauma informed Educators Network. And if you look up trauma informed educators that work on Facebook, it's a good place, there's a good group there, you can connect with them on their website, as well. The attachment trauma networks, another really great net network of people to connect with. And it really is, I mean, I would even say more than that. It's like a community of people that are connecting together and, you know, amplifying and working together. And, you know, really great stuff. I have two last things. And then I will well, we'll let you let you wrap up here. Jamie Emberson, actually, from the UK said, Sorry about joining late, but thank you, I love the my emotional regulation plan. And I use that at a systemic level, across all of the organizations and school are the handouts that are used, let's say, let's see are the handouts that can be used? Of course, credit to yourself. Great work. Thanks. So again, that's an email request. So yeah,
Unknown:I again, I'm not I'm happy if it's a resource. And again, like if make it true for your community, I think, again, so I think educators are great, great pirates, you know, we're always out there like, like, you know, being inspired by each other and making things based, you know, we have to do that. So,
Guy Stephens:yeah. And always good. I mean, you know, I appreciate you, I mean, you were sharing things for a bunch of kind of our fellow travelers, and it's always great to be able to credit people for the work. But I think that, you know, again, we're here, I think, trying to do this work for a mission for a reason. And everybody that I've connected with at least they're always happy to, to share things and credits always, always recommended. But yeah. And Nicole said, my question is, as a principal, do you get a lot of pushback? And you kind of addressed that earlier? You know, I would imagine you do. And I know, Nicole has some experience inside of a school as well. One word of advice to another administrator that is making this travel, what would you say to them about push back?
Unknown:I would say push through, push, push through, because I expect it, expect it because again, it's if this, you're seeing a fear response. Because when we say this, we're asking for a shift a change, we're asking for what feels like a loss of control. And so that sometimes the pushback is coming again, from where they are right on in terms of that, that fight or flight freeze. So don't take it personally. But just they provide the information, provide the support. I got, I get that every time again, I've done this at a traditional school. And I really started honestly, with at first, you know, it was like, everybody has to do this, you know, let's tell everybody and I said, How about we start with a group that wants to come to that they're interested, they're curious, then they can then it can build out, you know, so I think again, of course, I want everybody to have it. But I started off with a group of sort of willing, you know, curious, totally volunteer people. And then other people heard about it solid, what they were doing, they would talk about their successes. And so then it started building without, again, that pushback, that less and less and less,
Guy Stephens:you know,
Unknown:wanted, people didn't want to do it. At that point, the culture became uncomfortable. And that just wasn't the right fit for them. But by and large, so I'm back in a new community right now, right? So I'm gonna have to go I'm going through that process again. I did that in all ed. I was like, we're not going to be traditional all Ed this is not going to be like some like, make it so bad. They hate it. They want to go back now. educational site should be so horrible and awful that kids want to like flee from it. I was like, not happening here. So but here I am again, and I'm gonna have to go through that process again. But I'm telling you if you just can stick with it, and the rewards will be, I promise, you
Guy Stephens:know, James Moffitt. Yeah. Okay, I thought so. And James presented with us a few months ago. And the reason he came into my head here is that that response that you had reminded me of something he said, and he talked about his experience. And, you know, he talked about his experience and kind of what he learned throughout the way of trying to bring people along. And really what it comes down to is that, you know, he talked about how, you know, I mean, the same thing that holds true with kids, we should be doing things with people, not to people, but very often the temptation is, hey, I learned this great stuff, we're gonna do it. And you know, you're not doing it with them, you're doing it kind of to them, you're telling them what they're going to do. And of course, if that doesn't work, then then James said, well, then you end up doing it for them. So they're not really doing it. So you do it for them. And he said, you know, really, what you want to get to is doing it with them. And you know, kind of from the start is like, how do we bring people in? How do we get them on board? And it's about collaborating, you know, we want to collaborate not only with our kids, but you know, our teachers and staff, and nobody likes having things done to them. Right. And but But it's hard, it's hard. And it's, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure a lot of growth. Well, listen, I don't want to keep you all day, and it would be easy for me to do. But I want to thank you for spending time with us today. Thank you