AASR Live
A podcast from the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint
AASR Live
What is EMDR, and how can it help in the treatment of complex trauma
Join us for "What is EMDR, and how can it help in the treatment of complex trauma?" with Sidney McGillicky.
Sidney is an Approved EMDR Consultant and also a Certified EMDR therapist who specializes in the treatment of complex and developmental trauma with 20 years of experience working as a therapist. Sidney also is a Certified NMT(c) Level One Practitioner utilizing advanced knowledge and understanding of neurological development resulting from adverse and traumatic experiences throughout the lifespan. Sidney is client-centered and integrative, with an understanding of the consequences of trauma and developing interventions that focus on healing and recovery.
Well hello there and welcome welcome back to another alliance against seclusion restraint live. Getting Started here a minute or two late but not to worry, we've got a great show on tap for you today. My name of course is guy Stephens, the founder and executive director of the alliance against seclusion restrain, if you're not familiar with who the alliance is, and what we do, started the alliance of around four and a half years ago, the alliance is really about raising awareness about things like restraint and seclusion in schools, and not just about awareness about changing things. So it's not just about restraint, seclusion and restraint, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, corporal punishment, all the things that are often being done to people very often they move behavior. Our work is really centered around how do we change laws and policies? But even more importantly, how do we change approaches? How do we move away from things that are perhaps well intended but harmful? So we do a lot of work around not only crisis management and behavior management, but how we can change the way that we're supporting and working with people in schools throughout the country. And beyond. Of course, we've got an international audience, always excited to see who's going to be joining us. And we have an international guests today as well, which is fantastic. Today, we are very excited to have joining us, Sydney McGillicuddy. And Sydney is a certified EMDR therapist and approved consultant. And Sydney is gonna be talking to us a little bit today about EMDR. And how it can help in the treatment of complex trauma. I do want to let you know before we get into the show, a couple things. One, as always, today's session is going to be recorded. So it will be available to view and you can view them live on Facebook, YouTube and LinkedIn. You can also go back after the fact and view it on a those platforms as well. We also make the shows available as an audio podcast if you want to go back later. And listen in your car or while you're doing things you can download on your favorite podcasting application, whether it be Apple Music, or Spotify, whatever you might be using. Do you want to ask you I've seen a number of people have already jumped on. And that's fantastic, excited to have people with us here on Thursday. And if you would tell us in the chat, who you are and where you're from, it's always great to see that we have people joining us from often all over the world. And I love to let our guests know who's going to be joining us. So let's go ahead and dive right into our main topic here today. And I'm very pleased to introduce Sydney to you. And as I mentioned, Sydney is an approved EMDR consultant, and also a certified EMDR therapist who specializes in the treatment of complex and developmental trauma. With 20 years of experience working as a therapist, Sydney is also certified in MNTMN Mt. Sir, that's a lot and level one practitioner utilizing events knowledge and understanding of neurological development resulting from adverse and traumatic experiences throughout the lifespan. Sydney is a client centered and in really looking at the understanding of the consequences of trauma, developing interventions that focus on healing and recovery. And sitting is also and this is really important. I mean, this is this is gold star and special hat, right. You are also a volunteer with the alliance against seclusion restraint. So I've had the opportunity to to know you for some time now. And I remember some of our early conversations. It's always great meeting someone that is highly aligned with what we're doing. And certainly that's that's the case with you. And of course, you bring a tremendous wealth of experience to the organization as a volunteer. And we're really excited to have you here. So Susan, let me just begin by saying, Welcome, and thanks so much for joining us today.
Sidney McGillicky:Well, thanks for having me. I mean, this is a privilege and humbled and honored. And when you describe me as an international guests, I think that makes me sound more interesting than I am. But I'm gonna go with that. So you're
Guy Stephens:very interesting. And I mean, I mean for us, you're you're an international guest. And hopefully we'll have people joining us from around the world to to hear you today. I do want to remind folks as you're logging in, you know, let us know who you are and where you're from. We already have a couple people that have jumped in, so I'll just share with you. We've got Jennifer here, who's another Alliance volunteer, from Davis, California. Tricia, from Idahoans for Safe Schools, excited to learn new treatments for my three complex trauma kiddos. We've got Sarah, another volunteer joining us from Rochester, New York, actually from Fort Collins, Colorado today, okay in a different location. And Michelle, from Kansas crisis services coordinator. So we've got a number of people that have already jumped in and hopefully others will introduce themselves as they get. Get on with us here today. But we are really here to help conversation today. And I'm excited to learn more about you and the work that you do. And I think we, we, we titled this event, about really kind of understanding what EMDR was and how it can help with complex trauma. So why don't we start at the top here? You know, we know a little bit about who you are, and we'll learn more as we go. But let's start with something very simple. What is EMDR? Because I'm around and I've heard EMDR, you know, out there, I'm sure many others have as well, what EMDR EMDR
Sidney McGillicky:stands for it's an acronym for eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing. And it is a therapy that is client centered. And it really is a neurological Lee foundationally based therapy, and I'll talk about that in a second. It was discovered by Francine Shapiro in 1987. She is a famous story where she was walking through a sauna, the sauna Park in California. And she discovered through bilateral eye movements, that the current issue that she was dealing with in her life suddenly seemed less, less potent, less bothersome. So from there, she she developed what was called EMD and later became EMDR. Now, she discovered that processing was much more broad than just focusing on a single single event. So EMDR uses the brain's healing system, its processing system that we call the adaptive information processing system. And it sounds very, very technical and very, I guess the word is technical, but it really is uses the brain's healing capacity to process information from life experience, so that our silver able to have able to live free from symptoms such as anxiety, depression, certainly traumas also is what EMDR is mainly known for. So EMDR has been, you know, developed in 1987. It's, it has I think, well over 100,000 clinicians in the world has been trained in EMDR. Since its inception. EMDR is a very, it's a client centered approach. And it's a phased approach. So EMDR, we refer to it now as EMDR therapy, as opposed to a specific technique. So EMDR therapy is a phased approach, it has eight phases in total. And the clinician works through the with the client in collaboration, focusing on what the client is there for, and really adapting and tailoring individualizing, the treatment plan, the EMDR treatment plan to address what the client is going through. So EMDR, the methodology is rooted in the AIP system where the brain is able to process information in the neurons all throughout the brain, which is really, really, really, really, it is really, really neat. And part of my my training is in the nurse neurosequential model of therapeutics guy. So that's a brain mapping model that Dr. Bruce Perry has developed. So I took that training before EMDR. So I learned a lot about the brain. I learned a lot about developmental trauma, how adverse experiences throughout the lifespan and even single traumatic events in adulthood, changes the neurobiology of the brain. And EMDR has the capacity to essentially reset, readjust, returned the brain's natural functioning to a homeostatic state so that I'm not in a either I'm not in a hyper aroused mode, or a Hypo aroused mode, you see. So it really is, it's very developmentally respectful, as well. I'll explain that in a minute. And EMDR also has been applied to a variety of situations conditions, mental health symptoms, because it's been around since 87. So what's the math on that? A little while
Guy Stephens:and if I've been around longer than 87 You don't want to know my math. So I thought
Sidney McGillicky:so, because it's been around for that long. It's been applied to a variety of situations issues. Certainly populations and every time EMDR therapy is used to address an issue. Then it becomes researched. So EMDR is heavily researched. Just it is actually one of the most research therapies in the world. The World Health Organization amongst others, now recognizes EMDR as a preferred, or you could say gold standard trauma therapy. And it's gaining recognition throughout the world, the veterans, veterans affairs in the United States recognizes it. The who, as I had mentioned, and it's just becoming more and more accepted as a very efficient and researched based therapy modality by itself to treat trauma, mental health symptoms. And a whole like I said, addictions, very effective in getting to the root source of addictions, and in helping to improve, improve the behavior. And so that is some of the methodology around EMDR. And the mechanics is EMDR is, has it's a phased protocol, as I've mentioned. So phase one, we do history taking, getting to know our clients. Phase two is preparation, explaining EMDR, preparing people to do to do processing of, of, you know, painful or traumatic experiences, phases, three to seven is the working phases, as we call it. And then phase eight is a revaluation of the work that we did. So that, of course, doesn't happen in one session that happens over a series of sessions, you see. And so the EMDR clinician is really, really striving to achieve that collaboration, to understand the client's story, to begin to develop that treatment plan that's tailored, and very, very specified to the client's current current issues, current problems, symptoms, triggers, and so forth. So yeah, I'll stop there. Because there's a lot to talk about with Dr. There.
Guy Stephens:Sure. Sure. Sure. And I want to stare down a couple of paths here. But but before I do, I'll just share with you because again, you know, I had mentioned to you your your international fame here. So on cue, we have people joining us from Australia, and also New Zealand. And my daughter's that Yeah.
Sidney McGillicky:My daughter's in New Zealand right now. Actually. Yeah,
Guy Stephens:we need to go visit. I'll go with you. Okay.
Sidney McGillicky:I'll carry the bags. There. Yeah,
Guy Stephens:there you go. Great. And we've had a couple of people that have weighed in already as well. Sandra says EMDR is magical. I was able to release trauma from an event that took place 40 years ago. I'm interested in hearing how this model can be used with children. Okay, and we'll definitely can talk about that. Joe, Joe, Brummer friend and off there and amazing human being he said, I had a therapist that did EMDR with me, he focused on cognitions. I wanted to change, but they seem forced finding the right cognition was difficult. And I often felt I settled for one. I do think it helped. I'm curious if he was really doing EMDR thoughts. Hmm,
Sidney McGillicky:good question. Thanks, Joe. Yeah.
Guy Stephens:Okay. And, of course, we have somebody here from from Canada as well. So let me let me back up for a second. And, you know, of course, you know, the work that we do here at the alliance. And of course, the work around trying to, you know, reduce, eliminate the use of seclusion, reduce the use of restraint, move people in a better direction, in terms of how they're working with and supporting, you know, children often whose behaviors are leading to lots of lots of really punitive consequences and really poor outcomes. But, you know, of course, in the, you know, in that situation, we're talking about where kids are being like, physically restrained and secluded, you know, I know through experience, you know, not only my own experience, but the experience of many who I've had the opportunity to work with over the years that you know, a young child being physically restrained or secluded is traumatic is traumatic for that child is often very traumatic for the family as well given your of of that trauma or dismissive that potentially, you know, something like restraint or seclusion could cause trauma. But given your background as a therapist, he talked to us a little bit about, you know, trauma and what trauma does to an individual before we get into a little bit more depth around EMDR. So would you mind talking to kind of at a high level Have your you know, your your assessment around, you know how something like being physically restrained or secluded could could lead to trauma? And what that does within an individual?
Sidney McGillicky:Yeah. Yeah, I know that. Yes. I mean, I was a school counselor for almost four years before I did all of this moving to a private my private practice. So, you know, guy, I really, I really lived in those trenches, and I, you know, firsthand accounts of seeing students being, you know, first secluded into a specialized classroom and then then restrained. And so it was, it's that practice by itself is, is, how do I say this? Well, I guess to me, it's a little bit barbaric. And there's, there's this has been talked about quite a bit, and I know that your audience as well, oftentimes are sort of informed about, what, what your organization does. And so for a child who, who needs to be, are who are in those programs, oftentimes, a they're already having, of course, behavioral issues. My, my, my expertise, and my experience, is mainly with those children who come from adverse experiences, who come from homes, that there's neglect, violence, abuse of all kinds, children who are in foster care, certainly. So when you have those kinds of experiences early in life, it changes how the brains, the brain is, is developing, it changes the pathways in each of the areas of the brain. And so we know this neurosciences talks about this, the neurobiology of adverse experiences that comes from environmental experiences, certainly has very, very, very strong influence in how my brain, how my brain is sort of operating, how its formed and how its functioning. So there's two things that happens in the neurobiology, the brain, when I'm in these in these experiences eat before I step in school, even before I even think about going to school, my brain will then become patterned to function in a hyper aroused state, or a Hypo aroused, or dissociative state. Now, for children, those experiences, they're they're much more vulnerable, because their brains are still developing, they're still being organized. Many people say, I won't drop their names here, maybe I could, but I mean, people say in the neurobiology in the neuroscience, developmental neuroscience and neuroscience is traumatology, that mental health, illnesses are not hereditary. Many people say no, genetics does influence the creation and the vulnerability, but it is not the precipitating factor. It's the neurobiology that vastly dictates the symptoms of a mental health symptom, that then becomes a disorder. And oftentimes are most times it's, it's, it's nothing more than neurobiology. But it is way more complex than then just saying it's nothing more than that. So once we have a child, who is exposed to even not having any contact, no physical touch, can cause my stress response to be in a hyper aroused state. And then it'll flip away, and it'll go down to a Hypo aroused state dissociation. Now, if I have those experiences enough, growing up from from an early age to around 1314 15, I'm very, very, my brain will pattern itself to function in that environment, its pattern to function in response to the stimuli that is being received. So
Guy Stephens:and of course, when we're talking about, you know, forced isolation when we're talking about seclusion, I mean, that cycle that you're talking about, I mean, you can, you can almost see that happen when a kid is forced into a seclusion room, you know, kind of hyper aroused, right, they're banging, they're screaming, they want to get out there and a fight or flight response mode. And, you know, after after No, no one helping them after 15 or 20 minutes, you know, they slouch against the wall, their head goes down, they become kind of hypo and you know, you're seeing that, you know, shut down that the brainstem kind of response, right. I mean, this is really harmful, but but people sometimes they're doing it in the name of I mean, people put kids in seclusion spaces with the idea that somehow it's going to help a kid to self regulate.
Sidney McGillicky:Oh, I've not heard that before. Like,
Guy Stephens:yeah, yeah.
Sidney McGillicky:I mean, pardon my candor, but it gets very frustrating when you see that happening to students, because a couple of key things, when we have children who have come from backgrounds of trauma, developmental trauma, then they're in a state, they're in the states of functioning. This is something I want your audience to really remember, a state of functioning means that I'm in a hyperactive state of functioning, I don't have a choice to turn that off, especially if I'm 579 1015 and even into adulthood. And conversely, I don't have a choice if my brain is functioning in a dissociative hypo aroused state. Now, a state of functioning you see are being emphasized a state of function doesn't go away. And and I don't have a conscious choice in how I'm living in that state.
Guy Stephens:And whenever these aren't these really survival states, I mean, aren't these, you know, our bodies doing what they're wired to do?
Sidney McGillicky:100% survival states? Absolutely. This is the states operate beneath the cortices of the brain, these states operating in the stress response. And so the stress response is comprised of the limbic system, diencephalon, cerebellum, and the brainstem. And so those are the main areas that we in the NMT model that we Dr. Perry, has taught us to, to assess, and that's where we kind of, that's his model. Of course, there's a lot of other areas, that stress response that's also impacted guide. But you're right, they don't have a choice to be in that state of functioning. And then when they come to school, adults, what we see then is a tip of the iceberg phenomena, which is behaviors, non compliance in the classroom, they can't sit still. Johnny's being bad, it's just bad. And they need to have some consequences and need to begin to, you know, learn and, and consequences will these are behavioral, cognitive, behavioral mindsets. And I'm going to say this because Dr. Bessel Vander Kolk, has said this many while ago, in our society, North America, we have a cognitive behavioral bias. And the cognitive behavioral bias comes from a lot of it from the medical model. And the medical model of treating and understanding emotional issues mental health conditions, is, is very kind of very I don't want to use the word rigid, but um, I can't think of a different word, pardon me. The medical model treats the symptoms. The medical model, I think, also influences how we see behaviors. And if we apply a consequence to the behavior, then that person child will learn to choose another behavior. Okay, so let me let me unpack that for a second. Because that's implying that my brain is not functioning in a hyper aroused, like you said, survival state. So let me I'm going to say this to your audience. Anybody here ever been pulled over by the police?
Guy Stephens:It happened to my wife this morning, I was talking to my wife on the phone and she said, I'm getting pulled over. So. So in that moment, when that watching, I'll be in trouble.
Sidney McGillicky:So when that happens, we know what happens, right? Oh, my gosh, maybe a few expletives. If you're me. Your heart jumps up, you're kinda like one of two things. You're either angry at the police or you're angry at yourself. Now, you get startled, your brain literally goes into a momentary fight or flight mode. Okay. And so when that happens, my prefrontal cortex in that state of being in that survival state, it shuts down. It doesn't work efficiently, if at all. No, no. Imagine I'm a child. I'm seven years old. And I'm living in that startle state. You might not be able to see it, my face. And so then my prefrontal cortex, I can access it very, very well. Huh. So how would a cognitive behavioral approach work with that child's brain? That's rhetorical? The answer is it doesn't work. for everyone. Right?
Guy Stephens:So, yeah, so much of what we do is around that cognitive approach and assuming all behaviors intentional, right? Not Oh, they're all intentionally.
Sidney McGillicky:Yeah. Well, now not saying that not all behavior is there are some kids that intentionally do bad behaviors like, like I get it all? Well, maybe you're maybe your spouse for speeding, just kidding. Yeah, we and so now, the main point here, also, I think that I think is really has to be appreciated by the audience is that I can't speak for outside of North America's boundaries. But I do know, here in Canada, and I also understand in the States, schools who have these specialized programs, utilize behavioral programs, behavioral ism, that is not effective, to help a child's their nervous system feel safe, feel safe, right? That's an experience that a lot of these children don't have before they even step into a classroom, or a school or a school building. So how would a behavioral program as a starting point work? Again, that's rhetorical, they don't work very well, if they do work, they work out of compliance. And also, also I will add, because we're talking about schools, and I'm going to say, you know, here on the record, that most group homes in North America also follow behaviorally based programs. trauma focused CBT can be effective if my brain can operate this, my brain could benefit from those approaches. But oftentimes, they don't. So do we have a dilemma here? Kinda? Yeah.
Guy Stephens:So, so so much of the approach, and I would agree with you, I mean, much of the approach being used in, in many schools and in many other facilities around the world, you know, are focused on compliance are focused on the behavior aren't focused on aren't focused on helping people to feel safe aren't focused on understanding, you know, where behavior really is coming from, and a lot of what we're doing, and you mentioned consequences earlier, and, you know, what was running through my head is it's not just the, you know, kind of the punitive negative consequences, but even the the positive things, even, even things like rewards are not really helping our kids, when we're using them in such a way that it's really about gaining compliance. It's not about Well, Tim, yeah. So let me let me go a little sideways for a second. You know, I mean, it sounds like you would acknowledge and agree that, you know, for a young child, you know, first of all, often the behavior that leads them to be physically restrained or secluded is often not a choice. But often as a, you know, you mentioned kind of the state, right, it's often the body, you know, when we don't feel safe, you know, the body protecting itself, right. So a lot of this behavior that we see is unintentional stress behavior. But the act of being physically restrained, I mean, you know, that can be pinned to the ground that can be looked like, you know, being being held and carried against your will, it can look like a lot of different things. But, you know, you would agree that those actions that are taken can be traumatic to children. I guess the question is, one of the the questions I get a lot as we work with families and others that have been impacted by this, whether self advocate or whether family of a young child that's been, you know, physically restrained and secluded, the trauma becomes apparent, right. You know, I lived through it with my son, and I know, there was a period of time that, you know, we did not have my son, I mean, the trauma was so strong. So one of the questions is, well, what can we do? What can we help? What can we do to help a child heal from trauma? And of course, one of the important things is that we get them out of the situation where these things are happening. Because if it continues to happen, of course, we're just going piling on. But so talk to me about that, as a therapist and an EMDR. Therapist, what place might EMDR have, in terms of approach to trauma for children and what what, what are the, you know, how might that work? And what are the limitations on that as well?
Sidney McGillicky:Okay, I'll try remember all those point pointers. So the first thing that the first thing that I heard you say was the the the there's different populations of children who are in these secluded and restraining school environments, right So when we have a situation where I have, either it's autism, or Asperger's, or some developmental disability, injury, or a sensory, you know, sensory processing disorder, those are organically based conditions. And if I come from a family that's nurturing, that's consistent, that's loving, that's has that that is healthy. That is a different child and a child that comes from abusive environments. Okay, so now, this, so what the child who comes to those programs, because we don't have a choice, right? We kind of need, we have to allow the school systems oftentimes, to to have our child become enrolled in these programs, because there isn't a choice. So if I have a developmental disorder, such as I mentioned earlier, and I've never been restrained in my life, and my parents are loving, they're kind or consistent. And then I suddenly go into an environment. And by just natural, a natural consequence of my condition can be behavioral problems, emotional problems, sensory issues. So then I can't sit still and listen. So then that child becomes a problem.
Guy Stephens:And the expectations are the problem, right? I mean, we shouldn't expect everybody to learn and do in the same way. You're right. I mean, we have these expectations. And, you know, think about a neurodivergent individual that might you know, best Listen, while moving around the room or walking yet. We're very rigid in the way that a lot of people. Yeah,
Sidney McGillicky:so when a child in those in those experiences, all of a sudden is restraint. That is tremendously, tremendously, tremendously fearful and traumatic, because trauma is subjective. So what I mean by that is that my experience of trauma can be different than yours. Example being is if my parents were married for 15 years, and suddenly they got divorced. And I got just crushed. But let's say that your parents had been married five times. So that experience of the breakup won't be nearly as traumatic. So the experience of trauma can be subjective, but my nervous system doesn't interpret it that way. So if I'm being suddenly restrained, and held down and secluded, that is tremendously fearful to a child who's never experienced that kind of violence, because that's violence towards children. Bottom line, that's what that is.
Guy Stephens:And so I agree with you, you know, restraint, seclusion, corporal punishment. I mean, it is it's violence against children. Yeah. That's
Sidney McGillicky:violence against children. And I know the arguments. I've heard them, I've debated them on from time to time with those who don't. Who don't believe that that perspective, but this perspective is coming from neurobiology. This is less of my opinion, and my beliefs, and it is coming from neurobiology. So the neurobiology being held down to restraint, oh my god. So I had an uncle, my Uncle Mark, he's deceased. And he was a fun loving uncle. Right, lovely guy. But I was claustrophobic as a kid still kind of am. So you know what he did? That was fun for him. He held me down when I was maybe eight or nine or 10. And I freaked out. But I knew I was safe. I knew he wasn't. He's gonna let me go. So now, I've never forgotten that. You see. So to answer your question like, like, the bottom line guy, is in those situations to a child who's not used to that kind of violence is expecially traumatic, especially traumatic. And it creates that, like the fight or flight system, though, that's deep in the brain and the stress response and activates that. And it can aggravate existing symptoms, right? It can, it also can disrupt my my, my functioning, sleep patterns, you know, symptoms of anxiety can develop or worsen. All kinds of things happen. Now, to me, to me, laying hands on a child who has autism, and I know, I know what the argument was, I know what the argument is, they'll say, well, well, we didn't have a choice. That person that student was putting us in physical harm. We had to do this because we had to keep herself safe. Right? That's the argument. And to me, that is that is an excuse, not an argument.
Guy Stephens:No indication you don't know what else to do. And I think you No, very often when we find people that are that are doing these things extensively, you know, because the more they do it, the more they end up doing it, it seems. And I think part of that it's really trauma. It is, it is, in fact, traumatizing to hold a kid down and restrain them. I mean, that's not something that is easy to think about as a parent of a kid that have this happen. But it is dramatic When the arms are flailing and they're kicking. And unfortunately, the more someone does that to someone else, the more they're likely to be traumatized, the more they're likely to be hyper vigilant, the more hyper vigilant they are, the more likely they are to go to an intervention, like a restraint that they know, even if it's not working for them, because of the trauma when when we become stressed to a level that, you know, we can't cognitively, you know, rely on our cortex, we go down pathways that are well walked down, right, we do the things that we know, even if logically, they're not helping us, right. Yeah,
Sidney McGillicky:absolutely. And also, the trauma then becomes the trauma spreads, spreads to, like you said, the staff members in a different way. But then as parents, like, wow, that's very traumatic for parents in northern mice, my child is being restrained. For a developmental condition, and they can't
Guy Stephens:help themselves, right. My child is being harmed, and there's nothing I can do to help. Right. I mean, it's a feeling of helplessness.
Sidney McGillicky:Yeah. So then, then what, what happens then is parents experience secondary traumatic stress. Parents know, secondary traumatic stress is a phenomena that I did my thesis on, actually. But it is something that is a phenomena when I'm when I, if I'm exposed, if I hear about a traumatic experience, if I view a traumatic experience, or if I know about a traumatic experience I can have, I can have a traumatic response within myself. secondary traumatic stress, parents, family members, teachers, other students are all suffering from that from these situations. You see,
Guy Stephens:so So talk to me then about knowing the the stressful impact? You know, how might it EMDR being helpful for, let's say, both a child Anna and a parent? Yeah. You know, talk to me about that.
Sidney McGillicky:Yeah. So with, with children EMDR has been applying for, since its inception, applying India to children is, is not oftentimes not as straightforward as with adults, therapists who apply EMDR to children should really have some level of play therapy, training, and EMDR, before they begin to apply it, that's been recommended. It's been recommended by numerous, numerous, numerous people. So EMDR is highly effective for children guy. And when we use EMDR, for children with specific situations, as you're talking, you can clear the trauma in the nervous systems relatively faster than adults. You see, now there still is a preparation we have to go through, we have to understand the family dynamics, how much support is there for this child, that's going to dictate how we apply EMDR to that child, it does essentially EMDR with children uses the same the same protocol steps, the mechanics are the same, the methodology is the same. We just have to adapt it for different ages, different stages. Oftentimes, we have to know the difference between non directive and directive play therapy. So there's some there's some little nuances and technical things that consider guide but I have worked with kids with EMDR. And oftentimes, I'll use sandtray. As part of my training. I'm also have my full play therapy training and different certifications and sandplay trauma based play and my EMDR and a bunch of EMDR training. I'm going to show to Anna Gomez, who is one of the leading EMDR children at child experts. And so, when you when we when we are able to apply EMDR with children on a specific situation, and sometimes there can be clusters of experiences, the processing, when we're able to get into those memory networks, the processing happens fairly rapidly. Yeah, so what we're doing is we're relieving the nervous system of the burden of being in fight or flight with children and adults. Both children were injured. meaning as the neural circuits are being formed, mm z. So if children, when we can intervene before before their circuits are finished maturing, then we can intervene much faster than they will be carrying the symptoms into adulthood, you can still treat the symptoms in adulthood, the brain is the brain is has neuroplasticity all throughout. So these aren't permanent permanent wiring. However, when I'm an adult, the more experiences I have more layers, then there's more neural information to process from an experience or experience. And so children, they're still they're still forming those pathways. So that's why the processing happens a lot faster.
Guy Stephens:So So let me ask a question I'm thinking about, and we talked a little bit about kind of the population of children that are more likely to be, you know, restrained and secluded. And, of course, we know that children with disabilities, children with an IEP or 504, here in the United States, would be more apt to be, you know, returning excluded, we break that down. Autistic children are highly misrepresented, you know, in that data. And, you know, another another kind of, you know, aside from, you know, again, we often see kids with communication differences, so maybe non speaking autistic children, I'm kind of curious, based on your, your experience, and based on your knowledge, are, you know, there are people that are working successfully with non speaking individuals with things like EMDR? Oh, tell me tell me about that. I'd love to hear about that. Yes, yes.
Sidney McGillicky:Yes. Yes. Um, so yes, there are, as I said earlier, at the start of this interview, EMDR has been applied to a wide variety of populations and issues. EMDR is applied to their protocols and training and X experts in the EMDR community who apply EMDR protocol to children who are non verbal, or have limited verbal skills, children who have autism are under spectrum. And others, and so it is applied, now you have to adapt it EMDR, I didn't say this earlier guy, but EMDR is very fluid. It's, it does have a specific protocol and steps to follow. But it's very dynamic. And it is very, it's very fluid in the sense that can be flexible to be adapted to a population to nonverbal, to, I've done even I have done EMDR in a 16 month old once. But there's a way to do that. You see. So you can it does require the therapist to have a couple of key things, a lot of experience in EMDR. With children, certainly they need to know the population, the need, they need to have some specialized training. And also consultation or supervision. See, but there are people I know. People are applying in yard to VT to these to these kiddos to these population. And so it can be done. It is a bit of a niche. And it's kind of a specialized approach, I would say. But it can be done and it is done. And so and the thing about that is, if I if I'm in that situation, and if someone's listening who who is in a situation, it's very important to reach out and find that qualified EMDR clinician, so there's a bit of quality control. But also to don't don't wait, don't don't wait, don't wait, don't wait join. The longer we wait, the more that nervous system would be pattern to function in that mode, you see. So intervening as early as we can is necessary. And if you can't intervene early, that's okay. No, that's, that's fine. Still need still the positive benefits will happen when we process so nonverbal. Children who are on the spectrum autism Asperger's? Yep. So
Guy Stephens:I think I answered the question. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you know, and I want to pivot for a second, and we have a lot of conversation in the chat. So I wanted to take a moment and kind of pivot over there and get some comments. When we were talking about kind of, I think the, you know, the cortex going offline. And the idea that what happens when somebody's having a stress response, Jennifer said, the favorite question, when a child does something, it says, Why did you do that? And the kid looks in blank shrugs the shoulder don't help me makes it feel even more angry. But but you know, I mean, you know, how many times have you asked me to do that? I don't know. My Someone who was very young, he said, he would say, and I love this because it was actually really, really meaningful if my brain made me do it, you know? They're gonna ask what are examples of intentional bad behavior? So we were talking about, and you know, I'm a huge fan of people like Dr. Mona della hook. And of course, she talks about kind of body up or bottom up behavior, and then kind of on her cognitive behavior. And certainly, you know, I think you would probably agree that with younger children with less developed brains, when you add trauma, or you add neuro divergence, more and more of the behaviors are probably coming in that bottom up route. But you know, you kind of called out that there are kind of intentional behavior. So, you know, what would your example be of an intentional, so when
Sidney McGillicky:you see intentional behaviors, it's a little bit deceiving, right? So I'll try and unpack that, because there's a couple of ways I can answer that. So and now, unintentional behaved bad behavior means that I have the presence of mind that the intentional bad behavior. Yeah, sometimes kids just act like little orangutangs. Because that's what kids do. Right? Or maybe fun, or these kinds of things. But when we have the perspective that you're being bad, then the adult is interpreting that this child is suddenly trying to control me, control the situation, control the environment. So there's that kind of aspect. But when I am going to use the population of children who are who are come from those experiences, environments, where there's developmental trauma, and they come from neglectful environments, these behaviors are often referred to as survival or protective mechanisms. So the there are also trauma genic states that linea Anna Gill, in her book talks about I'm just looking at her book, right? On the bookshelf there. Yeah, right there, trauma genic states also has different categories. So these are, again, these these are the population of children who come from those environments that I referenced earlier. And so so they begin to behave, they can become manipulative. They can assert control in the environment, correct. They can, you know, try and control the crowd, they do all the kinds of things that are survival behaviors, because those behaviors are less learned than they are out of necessity. Hope that makes sense. Yeah, he's necessity, not not learned behaviors. Now. There are behaviors that are learned. I'm not saying that. That's all bad behavior is unintentional. But I will say that percentage is like prop inattentional is here and unintentional is here.
Guy Stephens:Right, right. Well, and you know, Stuart, Shanker, the merit center. Brilliant. Yeah, you know, such a big fan of Stuart Shanker is but, you know, he has a saying there are no bad kids, right?
Sidney McGillicky:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
Guy Stephens:I love that. But even in terms of, you know, okay, so a bottom up behavior being kind of a stressed behavior or body wired, protected, self protected behaviors, you know, top down being thoughtful and cognitive, you know, my leaning is to say that assume a stress behavior. If you assume a stress behavior, and you're wrong, there's no harm. But when you assume intent, and you're wrong, there can be harm. So I mean, I think you're always better off to assume that this behavior was not necessarily intentional. And what does a kid need a kid probably needs connection. A kid probably needs support. You know, so, you know, let's start out with a, let's assume the best of kids and others. And again, I think, yeah, yeah. Through the mess. Yep. Yep. All right. Let's get a couple of other things here. Jennifer said my son has early pre verbal trauma, developmental pediatrician wanted to do CBT when he was six or seven. My first thought was he doesn't even have cognitive memory of his experiences, which were medical. So medical trauma, and apparently the doctor fired them which probably was a blessing. Any thoughts on that a CBT on a six or seven year old?
Sidney McGillicky:Oh. Let me just gather myself here. I'd probably say yeah, no. Yeah. Because if I say yes, then I literally have contradicted everything I've said in this last half an hour. If I say yes to that question guy, if I agree with that, the physician that I'm just counting how many years of neuroscience research. So how, so we say, intentional bad behavior. So do I need to be intentionally willfully ignorant, to agree to a behavioral bias? Now that's loaded. That's a loaded statement, I get it. However, pre verbal trauma is highly treatable in EMDR. I often treat the pre verbal trauma with adults, there's protocols and there's approaches that I have training in. And that EMDR therapist can be trained. And there's a way in which we can access that pre verbal memory, pre verbal experiences, because one key thing I want people to remember, we talked about memory. But memory is experiences the brain is is is cataloging, the experience is all throughout the brain, brainstem, midbrain, limbic cortices. And memory is not localized in any one spot in the brain. Memory is everywhere. And so pre verbal trauma, we can treat that you would not treat pre verbal trauma CBT, because Jennifer's comments was was was spot on CBT with children is now now if a child has a brain that's well organized, not neurodivergent is healthy and functional. You can do CBT based things. But when that's not the case, CBT you might as well go spit in the wind and catch up with the prefrontal cortex. Yes, it's not developed well enough to benefit from CBT. And if there's any neuro divergence in my nervous system, or any aspect of developmental trauma, as I was saying earlier, how is that going to even work? The question is rhetorical, it's not seen. So but as I was saying before, guy, this leads to another point, which is, remember the cognitive behavioral bias? Right? Right. That's so entrenched in our system. Right, right, right. Now hang on a second. It's so entrenched in the publicly funded mental health systems in North America, school systems, group homes, and I can go on and on and on. physicians, doctors, even therapists, so then we say, he needs to go talk to somebody, we need to go do CBT. Now CBT, works really well. CBT is remarkably efficient, when my brain is able to access the prefrontal cortex, without it being hijacked by my lower parts of the brain, which
Guy Stephens:is why EMDR would be such a good fit for trauma, where your brain is far more likely. Yeah, I'm following you here. Alright, let me get to a couple more thoughts here. Senator said, can you talk about trauma and its potential relationship to generalized anxiety? Is EMDR effective for effective for generalized anxiety that may or may not be associated with trauma?
Sidney McGillicky:Yes. So Sandra, the answer is yes. Generalized Anxiety is a symptom of neurobiology. So, here's how I'm gonna answer that. Now. Remember, my brain is patterned to function through experiences, doesn't have to be exposed to traumatic environments, it can be exposed to parents who are stressed out constantly, it can be exposed to moving around all the time. Any experience that the child's nervous system notices that stressful patterns that to be in a heightened state? So hyper arousal in the brain creates symptoms of anxiety? And what are symptoms? Do you become a diagnosis they become a disorder? Generalized Anxiety means your brain is in a constant scanning mode for threat. So it's tricky. So, yes, Sandra, you can treat Generalized Anxiety effectively with EMDR. very effectively, actually. And I do have a number of patients I've have treated and children with generalized anxiety. And so yeah, their anxiety is highly treatable with EMDR highly treatable.
Guy Stephens:You just said something that launched another thought in my head here. Are you familiar with Steven Porges? His work around the polyvagal theory?
Sidney McGillicky:I've been referencing and actually, okay, okay. Yeah. So
Guy Stephens:So So what I was thinking here is in turn in terms of like, yeah, faulty neuroception and generalized anxiety. Yeah, that's really kind of a Okay, okay. Okay, so we're on the same page. I was like, Well, that sounds very, very much aligned. Alright, let me get to something here from Renee. This is a long one. So give me a second here. EMDR has been a lifesaver for my son. He didn't play therapy for many years, but really turn the corner with EMDR. He developed Post Traumatic Stress Disorder after being secluded in a closet at a school for a whole year without my knowledge, Renee, I'm sorry to hear that. This his first suicide attempt was at age nine, it's heartbreaking. At that time, I didn't know what was going on at school. He has high functioning autism, it will forever haunt me why he didn't tell me what was happening. Another another student called me to tell me about it. As my son was screaming, and it looks like it got cut off there. So we didn't get the whole thing. Yeah, and what, uh, yeah, let me just see if Renee came back on here with more. So, it sounds like a really traumatic experience. And of course, you know, we're in a I mentioned to you, you know, you said, you don't know why you didn't know. And so often, you know, when this is happening to kids, a couple things happen. One, kids sometimes actually assume that, you know, their parents or caregivers are somehow magically aware of everything that happens to them, especially young kids, they assume that we know everything that happens to them, we sent them into this place, and, and we must know what's going on. But then, of course, you have kids that are steeped in in shame, you know, they they have been learning to see themselves as a bad kid. And they're getting these consequences because they're a bad kid. Yeah, they don't want to come home and say, Guess what, you know. So I think there's a lot of reasons sometimes if we don't know that these things are happening, and of course we should. But it sounds like I mean, this is a case where, you know, somebody's really getting the heart of what part of what I want to talk to you about, which is, you know, what's the applicability of EMDR for survivors of restraint, seclusion in school, and it sounds like from Rene's experience and what you've been sharing with us, this might be a really good path for people to consider if they have a child. And it sounds like what you're also saying is, do it sooner do it sooner, you know not to wait. Yeah, yeah. All right. Let me see what else we have here.
Sidney McGillicky:Sorry, you know, Renee, I'm sorry to hear but what happened? That's horrible. And there's there's lots to say about her case. But
Guy Stephens:yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've got to do better. We've got to do better. I mean, the fact that things are still happening in schools, when we know better, yeah,
Sidney McGillicky:and one of the key points games gonna jump in quickly, I'm sorry, folks to get when when we are in those situations, like so. So in schools, right. Children, who are in these programs were who are become restrained and secluded. There's, there's inherent power imbalance. I'm, in fact, now way more helpless than I was before. And I'm at fault. Think of that rhetoric. I'm having an emotional crisis, because of a because of a fight or flight response, or whatever the situation is. And then I have a teacher will intentions or maybe not, who's preparing me and grilling me of questions or telling me about the consequences. That's even before had been restrained. Now, if that happens, of course, children, we get confused. If I told my parents what happens, what's what what what might happen to me. So children can lock this up, and they can internalize the experience and that's dangerous. Because if I internalize, if I internalize that too much, it becomes emotionally in a way cancerous. Then what happens is like that I that I can have that rumination, develop symptoms of depression, low mood, and again, that's neurobiology. But when I internalize it, and I don't tell anyone, suicide is the result of, of helplessness. You see, oftentimes, and it is depression can be it can be an invisible trauma until I see something like a suicide attempt, or ideations. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Because that does happen. That does happen. And we should not, we shouldn't kid ourselves that it doesn't happen. Now. You can see how passionate I am. I'm, I probably made a little maybe I'm a little scolding here, and I apologize. But I don't apologize for adults who don't do better when they have a choice. I'll pause it right there, because I get so I get so enthusiastic. And and my, you know, the protective gag comes out when I hear these situations. I have to maintain some decorum here. But you Yeah, you're welcome, Renee. Yeah, you're welcome.
Guy Stephens:So let me get a couple of other questions here. Angie said what we were talking about what was happening is child abuse. Let's say it's also trauma for a parent, when finding out this happened to your child. And we were talking about that earlier. Absolutely dramatic. And of course, you know, our stress responses, the man is on high alert, which can make things very difficult. But the question here is, Can EMDR or art? Can EMDR or art help reverse the damage done? So I think I know the answer here, but I'll let you take it away.
Sidney McGillicky:I can't say about art therapy, because I'm, I'm, I just can't comment about that. But I can say with EMDR. Oh, absolutely. Now, what now a couple of things that I'm going to talk about with EMDR is it doesn't change. It can erase memory, it doesn't change, the aspect of the experience we're trying to do is reduce that trauma response, when I think about the experience, or the existing response of the trauma from the experience. So that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. See, everything else applies when it comes to parents. And, and again, it, I would also stress that if I if I have a child, like such as Renee situation, and if I was, if I was, if I was Rene's. If that was their therapist, I would say, first, I would have to assess how the parents are responding. And if the parents have some level of secondary traumatic stress, which would be impossible not to, I would say, Okay, let's treat you folks first, if we can, more in tandem, so that then when, so that, then your child will have a caregiver who will be able to be there and provide the full amount of emotional support. Right? Not that you can't if you're having secondary traumatic stress as a parent, but it's very important to also treat the family, not just the child.
Guy Stephens:Yeah, I mean, it comes down to the kind of the the you first principle that I think is so important that you know, and I think this is really true of our educators, you know, and educators that may have trauma in the classroom, or like your own trauma can really be manifest them in the classroom. And it's important that you're getting the help and support that you need. Because if we are dysregulated, we're not going to be helpful to a child who's having a hard time. Right.
Sidney McGillicky:Right. And that's something that's so important. It's so that's so, so important. We often I'm not trying to vilify educators, because there are people too. And there are a percentage who need to be vilified. Let's just, it's probably a small percentage. Yeah.
Guy Stephens:I mean, it's the outlier. I mean, I honestly, I mean, I think the education because they want to help, right? They want to good, yeah. So sometimes you find people through compliance. So if
Sidney McGillicky:I'm, if I'm an educator, and if I have any history of trauma, or anything, or let's just say I'm just, you know, life dealing me or a bad card, they also need, you know, need to be regulated, and they also need to be, there needs to be compassion, it's compassion for them as well. And so, educators are human beings, I get it. This population is very hard to work with, especially in schools. I know, I know that firsthand. Yep. So, you know, most educators are well intentioned, and I've seen that most of them most of them are. But once you get into a system that is operating from seclusion and restraint, behavioral bias, then you either have to get with the program for let's see, option. Conform, or? Yeah,
Guy Stephens:well, you know, and I will say sitting we actually have a number of educators, we've worked with him that had been educators that have stood up against systems and, and some of them have had really significant impacts of changing systems. But it's usually been at some personal cost. It's not easy to take on a system whether you're a parent or an educator. Yeah,
Sidney McGillicky:no, no, no. 100% Yep. So. Yep. So I mean, teachers are fantastic. So one of the things I mean, when you have a teacher who's dialed into the class or who's attuned to the classroom If that child will feel so safe, a child will still feel so regulated that their prefrontal cortex now is available to learn. And that child will not forget that teacher. I had a great tree teacher. I can't remember her name, I can see your face. And she was firm. And I was hyper aroused. Right? It probably caught the ADHD, I'm sure. But she worked with me. She was firm, fair. And I gotta tell you, guy, I can see her face right now. And I was in grade three or four? You see, I've never forgotten her. So she was influential. And I think one of the messages I would say is that teachers, educators, they have you have so much influence on the development of the child. It's not just about teaching them. Right.
Guy Stephens:Not not at all just about teaching, right? Especially when we're talking about very young kids. You know, when we're talking about kids that are six years old, you know, I don't want to hear that your your job is just to teach academics, you're raising a you're helping to raise a human being when you're a teacher with an undeveloped brain, right. I mean, that's part of what we have to do and have to have to look at it. Yeah, we are. We're nearing our time here. But we still have a number. So I want to try to hit a couple of them before I before I let you go. Senator had a great one here that said, When do you know when a child is ready, or edited for EMDR? When I did EMDR, it was draining. And I was exhausted after each stressor. And it was difficult work, I held off going this route with my child because I didn't know how hard the work will be for her. So any thoughts on that one? Yeah, he's a good kid. Yeah.
Sidney McGillicky:So, um, hmm. There's a, there's a, there's a bunch of factors that the experience and trained EMDR child therapists would consider factors such as the environment. So if if a child is in foster care, and this is their fifth home in six months, probably can't get to the core memory, but you can begin to work with them to develop skills of CO regulation, getting a good therapeutic rapport. And those are those are pieces in the preparation phase of EMDR. If you have a situation where the child has a good loving family, and the family can provide that emotional support to help the child through any any post treatment symptoms, because it can be draining. EMDR is something that we've consider, we consider post aftercare, aftercare, aftercare considerations, such as the home environment, the attachment quality, their capacity, the history, a lot of things goes into the decision guy, for us as EMDR child therapists to to move into the processing or the working phases of the experience. There's different ways in which you can do that you can process with children in the sand tray. That's, that's accessing the experience from a distance. So you can titrate it, you can do all kinds of things based on that the need of the client, because EMDR is client centered. So it's not that you wouldn't snot start the process, you can start the process, but really talk to that therapist about about these concerns so that they can pace the EMDR therapy, you see. Does that make sense?
Guy Stephens:Yeah, absolutely. So I have another comment here from Linda says, a hearing how important it gets started rather than to wait is really valuable. And heard that from you, Sydney, you know, kind of, you know, the sooner the better. Right? And apparently just getting started investigating and VR as a tool last week, thank you for sharing. I'm going to turn that into a question. And the question is, what guidance would you offer to say parents that might be looking for a EMDR therapist for their child that has experienced trauma? You know, so are there places to go look for a therapist or things that would they should look for in terms of finding somebody who would be appropriate to
Sidney McGillicky:work with their child? Yes, yeah. Yep. So if you go to emdria. And if you're in this injury is international organization that governs EMDR internationally. So there's EMDR, Canada, India, Australia, UK, EMDR, I think it's called. So if you go to India, Andrea's website, and there's a tab on it says find a therapist. So you put in your geographical information, and it'll generate a list of those who are part of emdria Not every therapist registers themselves with emdria or members. So that's one way to find an injury.
Guy Stephens:Can you can you spell that for me? What's the what's the length there?
Sidney McGillicky:Yeah, Andrew E M. DRIA.
Guy Stephens:Okay, Okay, gotcha. Yeah, and
Sidney McGillicky:all So you could also go on to like psychology today. Put in your location, do an EMDR search, and you'll get those who are trained in EMDR. Okay, so that's the first step. The second step then is to my preference is to find somebody who's either certified in EMDR, or consultant. There's more certified EMDR ARS, therapists and neuro consultants. So if they're certified, that means that emdria has qualified them as to having mastered the basic protocol. The second, or the third thing I would also look for is, what's your what's your experience and training in working with kids in EMDR? And so if they say, Well, I lost a lot of experience, but I did a workshop for a weekend 10 years ago. That's not, to me, that might not be the best option. So. So does that answer the question?
Guy Stephens:Yeah, I think so. Let me let me add two little follow up pieces of this. One person, Carol asks, Can EMDR be done through telehealth or does it in person?
Sidney McGillicky:You can. It's better it's best with adults and children. I would say. You can do telehealth now you can do EMDR. With children through telehealth, I don't practice that way. So I don't have that expertise. I do know though, Carol, there are people who do specialize in that. And there are ways in which you can do so you can be done, Carol, for sure. So you can be done through telehealth virtual with adults, and kids.
Guy Stephens:Okay, and Linda, so we're gonna make this our final question here. And then I'm going to ask you if you have any final thoughts, but Linda asked, like, how do you get a child on board with this, especially a child that might feel like, you know, we've done all that therapy? They know the tools, how do you how do you help bring somebody along to be receptive to this any any first thing I do,
Sidney McGillicky:whenever the kiddos I get a report, they have to feel we have to get a relationship? Like that's, that's priority with kids. Yeah,
Guy Stephens:and but before that, before they even get to you though. I mean, like what might have? Yeah, I mean, I know you're gonna do that. And I know you're gonna be great at doing that. But, but let's say there's a kid that's going through all of this. And mom's a, you know, we have this, this new thing. Yeah. Any recommendations on getting somebody on board before they even meet you?
Sidney McGillicky:Yeah, there's videos, there's, there's some videos that have been produced? I don't have I don't have. I can't tell you where they are. But I know that there, there are videos that children can watch, that are designed to do what you're just what you're what you're asking guy. It talks about EMDR and child friendly language. There are certainly some, I think videos is probably one of the important things. There's also, you know, stir some materials, you can read to children about EMDR. And Gomez has some books about EMDR. There's also some videos that are geared towards children that talks about EMDR that people can present to their child to begin that to begin the buying process. Yeah.
Guy Stephens:Well, and that's just it, right? I mean, it's, you know, treating children like you would want to be treated yourself and giving them the information, explaining it to them and, and getting them bought, right bought in I mean, you know, I mean, too often kids are on the wrong side of having things done to them or for them. And, you know, sometimes it's really important to actually to get to get the buy in to say, Hey, this is what it is. And this is what we're thinking about. And, you know, here's a video, and if you think of some of those after the fact, you know, share them with me, and I can always share them online. This has been really great conversation. And our time is coming to an end here. But I want to give you an opportunity if there's anything else. Any final words you want to leave us with, in terms of, you know, our conversation here today. So this is your opportunity for that that last strike of wisdom here. Strike of wisdom.
Sidney McGillicky:DO IT guy says I'm just kidding. I would say I mean, thank you for the opportunity. I think it's important that we we begin to advocates for change with our children. And if it can happen with the teachers, we can access school board trustees, we need to begin to respectfully question the efficacy of what's being done to our children because they're vulnerable people. And I will not apologize for hurting a teacher's feelings. Because Because I think to me, the child's best interest you chirps, adult's best interests. So what I would say with that is, is I would say thank you for the opportunity to share what I what I what I have learned, I've learned this, see, I haven't come up with all this stuff. I've learned this from other people. And I keep learning. So keep learning, keep learning, keep learning about your child, investigate EMDR. And I think we need to band together as a community and and begin to advocate for change, because we're talking about development of a human being. Yeah, that's important. Absolutely.
Guy Stephens:So there's so much that relies on that down the road, right? I mean, so many Yeah, you're doing now? Yeah. Yeah.
Sidney McGillicky:So I'd say thank you, I've got gratitude for for having the opportunity. And I hope this made sense. And I hope this was, I hope this was beneficial. Yeah,
Guy Stephens:no, absolutely. It's been been a great conversation, you know, you know, a couple light bulbs going off in my head here. And I always enjoy doing these, because it's a great opportunity to, as you said, you know, continue to learn and, you know, learn from the experience of others. You know, I think one of the take homes here that is really important to me, is, you know, one, understanding and knowledge of potential trauma, right, you know, the kids being physically restrained and secluded or subjective, that is traumatic, and, you know, getting help getting help for, you know, getting help for trauma now, really could do a lot to help you and your child down the road, right, you know, by helping someone now with their trauma, as opposed to, you know, burying the trauma or and saying, Well, kids are resilient, they'll be fine. I don't by that, I mean, we, you know, saying kids are resilient is not a license to traumatize them. And then, of course, you know, what can happen down the road, you know, what happens with that trauma, you know, can lead to drugs and alcoholism, and, you know, so many other at risk behaviors. So, so acting sooner and acknowledging, I think, are so important. So this has been a fascinating conversation, really want to thank you, and thank the audience that joined us here today. I always encourage our audience when you enjoy these and find them helpful, share them, share them with others that you're you're connected to. And I just want to again, Sydney, thank you so much for your, your time and the work that you're doing. I know from our number of conversations that we've had, that you are really dedicated to the work that you're doing, and doing right by kids unapologetically. And, you know, a group of people that I work with on a regular basis, you know, they use the term unapologetic disrupter. And we need unapologetic disruptors, we need to disrupt embrace them as some sort of broken and you know, this is not in an attempt to do harm, but rather to do good, and make sure that we're raising human beings that are, you know, that that have the most potential that they can possibly have. So, thank you so much for being here. today. We're gonna let our audience go. You can hang around for a second. We're getting a bunch of thank yous coming in now on the chat. And appreciate all those of you that have been on or you've maybe joined us halfway through, we'll go back and watch the rest. Thanks for being here. And we will see you again next time. Thanks.
Sidney McGillicky:Thanks, everyone. Bye bye. Have a good day.
