Protect the Children Project: An interview with Eliphaz Costus of The Satanic Temple

Join us for “Protect the Children Project: An interview with Eliphaz Costus of The Satanic Temple.”

Eliphaz Costus is the Campaign Director of The Satanic Temple's Protect Children Project, working to protect all TST members in public schools from abusive punishments that violate their religious rights. He began his work with The Satanic Temple in 2021, when he organized the Bladensburg Satanic Peace Cross Ceremony with TST co-founder Malcolm Jarry, thus establishing the first Satanic monument on public grounds. Costus is also a singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist who wrote the infamous Satanic children's song "My Pal Satan.”

Transcript

Guy Stephens: 0:11

Well, hello and welcome it is Thursday. And you know what that means we are back for another Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint live event. Really excited today as always, we have a great guest today. And I'm interested in you getting to meet our guests and learn a little bit more about who they are and what they're doing. But let me first tell you a little bit about the Alliance. Of course, I'm the executive director of the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint, an organization that we started about four and a half years ago. The work of the alliance is really around the use of restraint and seclusion in schools, but much more broadly, it's restraint, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, corporal punishment, all of the things that are often being done to kids very often in the name of behavior. And of course, when we talk about kids, we're often talking about kids with disabilities, black and brown kids, kids with a trauma history. And we're often talking about failed approaches and techniques that are being applied to children that not only are ineffective, but can be harmful. So we're really there to advocate for children and the rights of children. Of course, we're advocating to support better laws and policies. In fact, next Monday, we have a great event lined up at five o'clock, where we're going to talk about how to go to Capitol Hill and advocate for legislation lead to keeping all students SAFE Act, there's a lot that you can do getting involved with the Alliance. So I encourage you to check out our website. Let me tell you a little bit about what we're going to be doing today. So I have a guest with us today Eliphaz Costus, who's joining us from the Satanic Temple. And you're probably going to the Satanic Temple. What does that have to do with restraint seclusion, and I will tell you here in just a minute, because we're going to talk about their protect children product project, which I think you'll find really interesting. I do want to let you know that as always, this event is being recorded. So we always record the events. They are available, of course live on Facebook, YouTube, and LinkedIn. And after the fact, you can go back to all those platforms and watch them on any of those platforms. You can also go back and listen as an audio podcast, we make them available as an audio podcast. So if you want to listen on the go, you can go to your favorite podcast platform, iTunes, or Spotify, or Google and you can subscribe and listen to our podcasts there. Also encourage you to subscribe to our YouTube channel, we're really trying to get more people following our YouTube channel, because there's a tremendous amount of fantastic content there. So with that, let me go ahead and introduce to you and tell you a little bit about our guests today. And before I do that, I'm going to ask you if you are watching live, go ahead and tell us in the chat who you are and where you're from. We'd love to know where people are joining us from and it's always great to see all the people that are joining us from all over the world for these events. So Eliphaz Costus is a the campaign director for the satanic temples, protect children project, working to protect all TST members in public schools from abusive punishments that violate their religious rights. He began his work with the Satanic Temple in 2021. It seems like it wasn't that long ago. But it's been a couple of years now. And when he organized the Blacksburg satanic peace cross ceremony with the TST co-founder, Malcolm Jarry, thus established in the first satanic monument on public grounds. Costus is a singer songwriter and a multiple instrumentalist who has written songs, including the infamous satanic children's song, My Pal, Satan. So of course, many of you are probably wondering, Satanic Temple and the Alliance, and we're gonna explain that in a minute. But Eliphaz, Welcome, and thank you for joining us today. You and I have had the chance to catch up on many occasions, and I appreciate the work that you're out there doing. And it's great to see you today.

Eliphaz Costus: 3:47

Yeah, great to see you too. And thanks for this opportunity to be on your podcast. To have a organization such as yours that I really respect and admire, the work you're doing, and, yeah, glad to be here.

Guy Stephens: 4:01

And I really appreciate that. And I thought it might be helpful to give a little bit of backstory here because again, I think when people probably are tuning in and seeing this and going the alliance against seclusion and restraint and the Satanic Temple, how are these two things are these two things connected? And I remember it was probably what a Gosh, a little over a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago, that you had reached out to me by email, and I got an email, I'm going to read just the intro to the email. And I won't go into the whole thing, but I'm going to kind of explain to you and I think I probably did my initial reaction to the email and then kind of what happened after that. So you sent me an email on July 19 of 2022. And you said greetings, I am the campaign director for the satanic temples, protect children project, working to protect the bodily autonomy of all TST members and public schools. We truly admire the work of your organization is doing and believe that you

Eliphaz Costus: 9:39

And so, yeah, and that's, that's our interpretation doesn't have to be everyone's but usually people who do you know 10 minutes of good faith research about us and look at what how we describe our beliefs in our tenants on our own website will realize that It's something very much, in my opinion very much rooted in humanistic ideals. And that's what drew me to it. Because, I was raised Jewish, but me now never really committed on a spiritual or religious level to Judaism, even though I'm proud of my Jewish ethnicity. But, discovering we do consider ourselves a religion, which is maybe the most, one of the more contentious things because often people think, Oh, how can you be a religion if you don't actually believe in a higher power? Because we don't actually believe in a literal Satan, we don't believe in any kind of supernatural entity at all. All our beliefs are rooted in our best scientific understanding of the world, which is actually one of our tenants. But, I think to me, it's a way to sort of redefine religion is something non theistic, and something rooted in ethical principles, and deeply held beliefs that are separate and not tied to supernaturalism.

Guy Stephens: 11:20

And you mentioned, these deeply held beliefs. And I went ahead and brought up the the website that has the fundamental tenants. And maybe we can kind of walk through these a little bit. But, as you said, kind of putting due diligence in and spending 10 minutes, quickly, I was able to kind of learn what this organization was trying to do and what you were all about. And, you talk about the deeply held beliefs. I look at these tenants, and I thought, Oh, well, one should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason. Okay, well, that, that sounds like something that I would resonate, the struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit, and to prevail over laws and institutions. Three, one's body is inviolable and subject to one's own will alone. Four, the freedom of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend, to willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another's is to forego one's own. Five, beliefs should confirm to one's best scientific understanding of the world wants to take care of never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs. Six, People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify and resolve it, resolve any harm that might have been caused. Seven, every tenant has a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought the spirit of in the spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should prevail over the written and spoken word. So you know, I read these things. I'm like, Oh, well, those all sound like pretty good foundations for a belief. So that's really kind of the foundation of the Satanic Temple. Is that correct?

Eliphaz Costus: 13:05

Yeah, the seven tenets are really at the foundation. And, I also really liked them, because to me, they're very common sense and beautiful ethical principles. Which, I believe, even before I discovered the existence of TST, the shorthand that we call Satanic Temple. So you might hear me say that. These were still sort of, although maybe I hadn't fully defined them. These were kind of my underlying personal beliefs that I was working toward, and just finding an organization that really articulated that and then use those beliefs to work toward collective goals and common good. That's what got me really interested in it. And at the same time, although they're very common sense, they're also they're fairly broad. They're not like, specific edicts that you have to follow, there's no restrictions of what you can eat or how you should dress. These things are all personal because a big part of being a Satanist for us are. And for me, it's just being able to express your own individual self however you want, no matter your background, no matter your gender identity, sexual orientation. It's just we advocate for the authentic expression of one's individual self as long as you're not harming anybody else. Because that would be denying somebody else's freedom.

Guy Stephens: 14:43

Gotcha so you kind of came on a personal journey through this but found that many of the the tenants kind of resonated with you. So you became involved, but tell me how you went from involvement to a I'm kind of taking on a project and a pretty significant project. So you are the campaign director for a project called Protect Children Project, or PCP. I'd love to hear how you came to that project. You're interested in that project, and ultimately kind of what you're doing there.

Eliphaz Costus: 15:20

Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's a little bit of a unfortunate acronym.

Guy Stephens: 15:25

As I said, I saw your smile on PCP. That doesn't sound...

Eliphaz Costus: 15:29

It's kind of funny. But that's what we got. So I got involved, I decided to become a member of the Satanic Temple in 2019. And that was just after watching the movie Hail Satan, question mark, Hail Satan. And it's a great documentary about the founding and the goals of the religion. And yeah, I was just kind of immediately hooked and wanted to get involved, because it just resonated with me so strongly. And I was like, Oh, well, this seems much more fun than just being an atheist. So as I got into it, the more and more meaningful it became. And after that, I guess the first thing that happened that sort of led me toward the Protect Children project is I organized a somewhat significant event in it's actually in Bladensburg, Maryland, in reaction to the Supreme Court's decision upholding the Bladensburg peace Cross, which was a case probably not many people remember from I believe it took place or the ruling came in? Maybe it was 2019, I might be wrong about that. But we, I basically helped with it. I connected with the co-founder of TST, Malcolm Jerry and co-organized this sort of symbolic demonstration, or more of a ceremony or ritual at the Bladensburg peace cross, because it's in my home state of Maryland. And because the court basically said, Oh, it's a giant 30 foot stone cross in the middle of a very public road. And, in my interpretation of the Constitution, that seems like an overreach, of having a giant Christian symbol on public property. And Malcolm agreed with me. It was already decided law because the Supreme Court upheld it. So instead of, there's no further path to taking it down. So we decided to, create interpretation where we sort of adopted the cross as a satanic symbol, because the Supreme Court had said, Well, it's a world war one monument. So really, it no longer has exclusive Christian significance, just paraphrasing. And so our response was, okay, well, we're going to adopt it as a satanic monument, and call it the satanic Bladensburg peace cross. And at the same time, staying true to the original meaning of the Cross, which is to honor veterans, which we absolutely support. So in hosting that event, which went off really well. And it was really well attended, people came from as far as I think, Pennsylvania to come and Virginia. It was a really powerful and meaningful experience for me personally, and because of the success of that. I think that sort of put me on the track to getting offered this position for the Protect Children project.

Guy Stephens: 18:52

That's great. So I want to dive in, and, of course, understand a little bit more about the project. And I'm actually going to bring up on the screen here. So bear with me for a second. I'm going to bring this back up. And let me do that. And maybe have you kind of walk through with us a little bit more about. So what is PSP? Protect the children project, what is it? Because when I came to this page, the very first time and I'm like, let's see against corporal punishment, solitary confinement, use of physical restraint. I'm like, wow, this is very aligned with the work that we're doing here. So tell me about the project and kind of at the high level, and then we can kind of drill into some of the details. And you can tell us a little bit more about what you're doing, because I know that we've talked before about some very interesting strategies in terms of how to affect change here. So tell tell us first about the project itself. What is the Protect Children project?

Eliphaz Costus: 19:53

Absolutely. Well, yeah, this is this project in particular was definitely Malcolm Jerry's brainchild. And then he brought me on to manage it. But, inherently we believe that the Satanic Temple in accordance with our beliefs about compassion and empathy. We believe that it's just unethical for children to be objects of physical or psychological abuse, especially in a public educational setting. And it's really terrible that it's still legal in 17 states in our country. But even more specifically, when it comes to protecting the rights of our members, what protect children Project does is advocate for our members who are in public school, to prevent them from these kinds of egregious forms of punishment, like corporal punishment, solitary confinement, or also known as seclusion, also sometimes called scream rooms.

Guy Stephens: 21:04

There's a lot of things they are called. And some of them have very innocent sounding names, like, the cool room, the Blue Room, the calm room, and the quiet room. And these are rooms that are used, essentially for solitary confinement for seclusion, and are really harmful to kids.

Eliphaz Costus: 21:23

Yeah, that's one of the reasons your whole organization was started because of your personal experience with your own son in public school. And I'm sorry, you both went through that. But in addition, the use of physical restraints, physical or mechanical restraints, and also restriction of bathroom access, and these four types of punishment. You know, in my opinion, they're clearly unethical, but it's also for TSTs opinion, they actually violate our religious rights and our religious beliefs, because our tenant number three is one's body is inviolable, subjected to one's own will alone. And so even a student in school has a right to that, to have that religious belief respected, if that's the beliefs they hold. So any of the corporal punishment, solitary confinement restraints, restriction of bathroom access, those all would be in violation of a TST member's religious rights. And so our argument is that we can use this, I mean, we're using our religious rights to be exempt from those types of punishment in public school, and because public schools, our government institutions, are religious rights, and are therefore our civil rights and have to be respected. So that's kind of our strategy and our argument we make when reaching out to schools or advocating on behalf of students who come to us for help.

Guy Stephens: 23:06

So at a high level, you are aligned with our beliefs here that we should not be using corporal punishment, we should not be inflicting pain upon children to gain their compliance, we should not be shutting children in rooms by themselves. We should not be using physical or mechanical restraints on kids or restricting bathroom access. So I've got your webpage up here, where it has these four things that you think are really important and says that, so what you're saying is, you're taking this another step and saying, well, not only are these things bad, these things are bad and violate our religious beliefs. So I guess the next step from that, and you and I have talked about this a little bit in the past, is that kind of under that umbrella of protected religious beliefs. Your strategy has been to allow and encourage members to download a student rights card, to protect your bodily autonomy. Can you tell us a little bit about what that card is and what your what the purpose behind that is?

Eliphaz Costus: 24:13

Yeah, absolutely. This is sort of a newer initiative and strategy that we we rolled out this year. And we actually haven't even publicly announced yet, but we'll be doing that soon. But, essentially, it's a, and I can even hold one up right here. I have them on my desk, but it's a card like this.

Guy Stephens: 24:30

And I am on the public website, by the way, just so you know, I'm not getting you trouble am I?

Eliphaz Costus: 24:35

Oh, no, no. Actually we've already had probably close to 300 students from across the country, download the card and are hopefully carrying it with them.

Guy Stephens: 24:46

Did you show us both sides of that? Was there something on both sides?

Eliphaz Costus: 24:48

This is the front and then the important stuff is on this side. And it basically just states that it's an official TST Satanic Temple religious document. And it says I'm a member of the religious organization, the Satanic Temple. One of my deeply held beliefs is tenant three, one's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone. psychological and physical abuse, violate my religious beliefs and civil rights, which include corporal punishment, solitary confinement, being put in restraints, denial of bathroom access, and disregarding my religious liberty may result in legal consequences. So we have means to back that up through our legal team. So what we're encouraging people to do, if you're a member of the Satanic Temple, and you're in public education, high school or below, and often parents who have children in school or guardians reach out and want to get the cards for their children, because they are members, and they want their children to be protected, but you can carry this with you, when you're in school and show it to any teacher administrator who might violate your rights, either preemptively or even if it's about to happen. And this card puts them on notice that by using any of those kinds of discipline, they would be violating religious and civil rights. So after that, once that's been established, and they've been put on notice, then there can be legal consequences to that.

Guy Stephens: 26:33

So, and from my understanding, from having conversations with you before, first of all this is something that, anyone that, and help me get this right, because I may get this wrong here, but if somebody identifies as a member and is joined in some capacity, and my recollection was, there wasn't a terribly complicated pathway for somebody to join. But if they identified as a member and downloaded this card and said that they are, the idea here is that this would then give a another layer of protections. And, of course, we already know that some protections that are in place are being violated, civil rights are being violated with these things. But what you're talking about here through this is that there's another layer potentially, through this and the kind of religious aspect of it. So if somebody were to be a member, and get the student rights card, and I know you've talked before about like putting a school on notice. So let's use a hypothetical situation. So there's a parent whose child has been restrained and secluded, and they either were an existing member or decided to join, you then might be willing to put the school on notice with a letter to say, and if I'm making things up, you can correct me, but you might be willing to do something to say, Hey, this is a member, you are violating our members rights under this and put them on notice. And I guess the thing that I've heard kind of mentioned here, is that there's a potential for legal action. So if, for instance, the right case emerged and this was happening, and they were just regarding this, the Satanic Temple is willing potentially to take action is that?

Eliphaz Costus: 28:26

Oh, absolutely. And one of our trademarks is taking legal action to fight these battles for our religious rights and religious liberty in court. So absolutely, if a school or administrator after being put on notice of a student's religious rights disregarded that or if they saw the card and decided, oh, I don't want to respect a Satanists rights in school, because I don't like it. I don't like the Satanic Temple, and I want to paddle the student anyways. Once we are made aware of that, then yeah, we would start to explore taking legal action against that school.

Guy Stephens: 29:11

So the idea behind this is that doing something like this could could set a legal precedent, right? That this is not okay. And, it's really interesting. I think it's a brilliant strategy. And, I mean, I'd love to see it tested. I'd love to see a parent or family that holds the beliefs. You and I've talked about this before, but they might reach out and try to get some help. And, I think setting precedents really important.

Eliphaz Costus: 29:51

Yeah, that's the ultimate goal. If that case and plaintiff should come to us with a with a legitimate case and can prove that their rights were violated after they've already established their rights with the school and with the administrators then yeah, we absolutely will back them up with legal action. I also want to mention because you said something before when it comes to joining,

Guy Stephens: 30:23

Oh, thank you.

Eliphaz Costus: 30:26

One of one of our long standing policies, we don't proselytize. So we don't do any outreach to try to convince people to join TST. But to join, it's as simple as just deciding for yourself, it's just an individual choice and decision, there's no membership fees, there's nothing you have to sign in blood.

Guy Stephens: 30:55

No sacrifices to the altar

Eliphaz Costus: 30:57

No nothing like that. So it's just an individual's choice, whether they want to identify as a Satanist. And a lot of people who choose to do it don't choose to do it publicly. And it's just something they keep hidden, which is perfectly reasonable. I mean, there's also a reason why I use a pseudonym online, because Eliphaz is not my real name. But it's just an individual's decision that they make. But once that's made, if they identify with the seven tenants, then we have their back when it comes to their religious rights in public school, and when it comes to other battles as well. Like, as far as abortion rights, we also have many cases, in many states right now, to defend reproductive rights for our members, as well.

Guy Stephens: 31:55

So, the organization has a pretty good history of legal action to protect rights. And, in fact going back to the film, part of it is around the displays of religion and public places, and various freedoms. So tell us more, I know, there's a number of different projects right now. And I'm not going to ask you to speak for all of them, because I know that you're really involved in this particular project. But what are some of the other ongoing campaigns that are under TST?

Eliphaz Costus: 32:37

Oh, there's many. One that I'm maybe more closely connected with is the after school Satan Club, which provides after school programs that promote self directed education and support scientific learning and the intellectual and creative interests of students. And, because that's also directly related to public education as the protect children project is. That's also in response to these evangelical after school clubs, which are proselytizing students and promoting Christian belief systems. And so there's no reason why we shouldn't be allowed to have our own after school club, if it's asked for in a certain area. And there's also the Silver Faction, which is satanic temple's peer support group for recovery from addiction. Recovery without superstition, which I really love and respect. The Satanic Representation Campaign, that actually also has a lot of overlap with my project, because there's a lot that's dedicated to promoting pluralism and fighting for Satanic Temple members and their religious liberty in public places. And giving counseling to members who want to have our religion represented alongside other religions in the public square. Also Satanic Good Works, there's so many that I don't have enough knowledge to speak in depth on.

Guy Stephens: 34:27

Sure, understood. I was just gonna say that a lot of these programs are really aligned with the things that many people value. And of course, everybody has their right to different opinions and thoughts on things. But, I mean, I was surprised to find that as I looked in the programs that there are programs that are really of wide appeal. And are there for important reasons. If you're going to support religion, are you open to all religions then? And I think there's a lot of important issues that come out of this. But again, this project that you have protecting children, I think is really at the core kind of what you're doing. Which is you're trying to create a better world for humans. Is what I'm hearing, right?

Eliphaz Costus: 35:27

Yeah, absolutely. I mean on one hand, these types of punishments that are happening in schools, as an individual and an ethical person, I just think they're abhorrent and immoral. Also, when you look at data and scientific understanding of these punishments they are ineffectual. They're not rooted in any positive outcomes. I know you have researched this topic extensively, but there's no scientific evidence to support that they actually are effective at all in modifying children's behavior in a positive way for them to learn better. The only thing that it does, especially when it comes to corporal punishment, the only thing that it does is get students to comply, immediately, that's the only benefit.

Guy Stephens: 36:22

At a great cost, though.

Eliphaz Costus: 36:27

Yeah, at a great cost. And that's not worth it. When you look at the long term psychological trauma that it causes. Then of course, it's a violation of our religious beliefs. So there's multiple reasons why this is very important to us as a religion, and to me as an individual. Because even outside of working for TST, I'm also a teacher who goes into public schools, and I'm not a full time public school teacher so I don't have to deal with the day to day stress that they do. I also empathize with teachers a lot of places right now. And most schools I believe have the student's best interests at heart, and they have such a difficult job. And it's very hard when it comes to having some sort of classroom management and discipline in your room. That's a really tricky thing. That's not something I like to do, I never like to be the disciplinarian. I'm sort of the fun musician and artist who comes in and gives kids that creative experience. But so I realized that they have a very difficult job, but when you cross a line into something that's physically or psychologically abusive, that's not acceptable to me.

Guy Stephens: 37:59

So I want to just kind of go through this another time with you in terms of this idea of the Satanic Temple offering protection and having a interest in actually legally pursuing the violation of members rights. Because I think there could be something significant that could come out of this. So I'm going to walk back through it, and you can correct me where I get things wrong. But, essentially if someone looks at the tenants of the Satanic Temple, which again, we reviewed earlier, and again, as I reviewed those I was, okay, well, these are all really good things to consider and live by, but if somebody agrees to the tenants and wants to be a member, they can decide they want to be a member and join. There's nothing complex that they have to do to join. And then upon identifying as a member, they could, if their child is in school, where these things are happening, they could have their child fill out the application, which is free for the card, and the card is there to kind of put into words, the protection, which basically is stating that this the cardholder is a member and protected under the religious beliefs of the Satanic Temple. And that doing certain things would violate these, like restraint, seclusion, and all these things that were talked about corporal punishment. So, if a member then found that they had done this they had joined and they had given their child a card and these rights are being violated that TST might, for instance, offer to send a letter to the school or put them on notice in some way if these things continue. So, you're suggesting that given the appropriate case that that TST would be willing to potentially take something legally forward to kind of show that this is a violation of the religious rights of your member, which could have a pretty profound impact. Not only on it happening to that individual but it could be a profound impact on it happening to others. Did I outline that right? Am I getting everything right there? So I mean, eventually if somebody is going through this, and let's face it, we know it can be really difficult to find help. Even though there are some resources out there to provide help the family, sometimes there is none. There is no help out there. But you're offering a pathway to people that are your members that say, and from what I heard from you before, not only are we saying that, we can do this, but we we want to do this, we want to show that these rights are protected if you're a member of of TST. Am I getting it right?

Eliphaz Costus: 41:04

Yeah, I definitely would agree to that. I think in most cases, I mean, we obviously don't want students and children to go through any more punishments if they don't have to. So hopefully, presenting the student rights card or sending a school letter, which is something we used to do a lot more often before we came up with the Student Rights card initiative. But of course, we can also send a letter in addition, but hopefully, that's enough pressure on a school that they'll make the right choice to respect religious liberty, and to not test our resolve.

Guy Stephens: 41:49

There's a real big worry there. And from what you and I both seen, we know that isn't always aligned with what actually will happen. And, sometimes these things do have to be tested. But you've got, and I say you just know that I'm referring to TST. But the temple has done other things as well, in terms of when I say that you've had billboards and other campaigns to raise awareness. Am I getting that right?

Eliphaz Costus: 42:20

Well, yeah, before my time as director, there were several billboards put up for protect children projects, in certain areas, strategically. I think near schools that we knew were using corporal punishment, one that said, our religion doesn't believe in hitting children with the website where you can go to, if you are concerned about your children, or yourself being hit in school. So yeah, billboards were part of it. And going back to what you were saying before, we're absolutely committed to moving forward if there was someone who came to us. Although it's obviously a big commitment to be a plaintiff in a case like this.

Guy Stephens: 43:13

And that's the process. I mean this doesn't resolve things overnight, but processes that set precedent can be things worth doing. Because, often they can lead to bigger changes.

Eliphaz Costus: 43:28

Exactly. And so if we were able to find the right plaintiff who was having this problem and having their rights as a TST member ignored, and they were willing to take on the commitment of litigating this. And most likely they would have to have to publicly come out as being a member, which can be kind of daunting for some people. But in that situation, yeah, we're firmly committed to take it to court and hopefully establish a precedent where people's religion, any set of deeply held beliefs, could be used to exempt students from these kinds of punishments. Sometimes people approach me saying, can it be this? And I remember, in one case, they said"my child doesn't want to run laps at gym, can we say that's a violation of bodily autonomy?" And that's really not what that is. It has to be something egregious. It can't be students who doesn't want to do because they dislike it.

Guy Stephens: 44:49

Yeah, and I mean, we would probably both like live in a world that had more consideration for children's rights. But again, to take action like this we're talking about something that's pretty significant here. So I can absolutely understand that. it's interesting, and I'll share with you, and I think I shared with you once before. I had written and tried to reach out to, I want to say eight or nine different religious organizations, looking at at a national level, about restraint, seclusion and corporal punishment. And asking their positions and opinions on these things. And the majority did not respond, even to several attempts to reach out. And I had probably, other than TST, probably two other responses. One of which was also I think, probably very aligned with the response that I got from from you, which is that we don't believe that these things should happen to kids, and we've got to do better. But we often find that religion is actually not only not coming out to do things to protect children, like is being done here, I mean, what you're offering to do here. But it is often used as the reasoning for doing things. We highlighted a news story recently, where Mike Pence, as a candidate was in Iowa, I believe, was talking to a table full of people. And they were talking about schools. And the question about what do you do to, and I can't remember the exact question, but essentially, to address the issues that are happening in schools across the state and across the country. And the response that Mike Pence gave was about corporal punishment, and essentially saying that we should bring back more corporal punishment, that we should hit kids to get them to comply. And he related his own story about being in Catholic school and getting hit by nuns, and that he probably didn't get hit all the times that he should have. And it just surprises me sometimes... And he turned out just fine? Right! I was gonna say that, and I'm not gonna go any further with that. But that's what we hear, this happened to me, and I Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. And, we're happy to make turned out just fine. And I'll tell you, I mean, from personal experience, I've shared this before, but I went to a religious school when I was very young. And in kindergarten, I was subjected corporal punishment. There was nothing that I did that should have warranted that. But that was done to me, that was done to me as a five year old. That's not appropriate. Of course, we hear things. This is a book that I actually just recently got and was beginning to read. But this is an academic book. And of course, we hear this phrase a lot, Spare the rod, spoil the child as a justification for corporal punishment. So it's kind of interesting to me the contrast here, again looking at TST very outwardly taking this on as an issue and having a very strong stance on it. But I'm surprised is maybe the wrong word, but that I get less response when I began reaching out to people in various religions to ask like, Hey, what are your thoughts on this? And, what are your positions? And then to say that in many cases religion is used as a reason. There was a case last fall, I don't remember correctly, but I want to say Oklahoma, I should remember his name. I've seen him in the news enough, but an Oklahoma representative. They were close to passing a bill, I believe on prohibiting corporal punishment for children with disabilities. And this particular person stood up and said that the Bible says it's okay to use corporal punishment and that's the only thing that matters to me. And essentially, what went from a pretty sure bill that was going to be passed ended up not passing. So it's kind of interesting to me that contrast that we see. I don't know if you have any comment on that. But again, there's a lot of things that often happen in the name of religion that just seem like it's definitely well beyond time to question these things. that distinction between us and certain types of Christian belief because I don't want to pigeonhole all Christians. Sure. Absolutely.

Eliphaz Costus: 49:47

It does seem that in a lot of evangelical communities, they are supportive of corporal punishment. And I remember that situation in Oklahoma. I do believe, and correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that there was because of some public outcry, I think they ended up passing it. Is that right? I'm not sure. I remember following it for a while and seeing that there was a chance it might get voted on again and pass. But for example, in April of this year there was a proposed ban on corporal punishment in Texas public schools. And apparently it's a bill that's been proposed for the past 18 years, apparently every other year. And it's failed every time. So it wasn't expected to pass. But I remember reading that in the Texas Tribune online, which I have actually pulled up right now. And, Republican representative, Matt Schaefer, in this article is quoted as saying, We will be wise to follow the design that God has for disciplining children. And apparently, that's from a biblical proverb and he enforces hitting children. And, first of all, we don't live in a Christian theocracy. So your belief about what God wants for disciplining children shouldn't have any place when it comes to passing laws or in public policy for education. Secondly, that doesn't seem ethical to me. And so if that's how you're representing your religion, I think you need to really question that interpretation. And I really think, in this case, us as Satanists have the moral high ground when it comes to not wanting to hit children. And so we're happy to draw that distinction. It's unfortunate that it has to be drawn. But it's a real thing. When it comes to Texas, that is a state that has a really bad record of hitting kids, the second highest in the country. I'm sure you know this when it comes to civil rights it is last. From the data collection from 2017.

Guy Stephens: 52:17

And there's so much data and information out there to the harm of this, right? We know that hitting kids is not something that we should be doing, we know the the trauma, the damage that's caused by doing these things. And, I'm a huge proponent of the idea of if you know, better you do better. And as a people we know better, yet, we continue to do some of these things, even with a mountain of science, a mountain of evidence to say otherwise. So it's just really hard for me to wrap my head around it. And I also know, as I was listening to you talk about this, and knowing from our conversations, the tenants that you believe are very supportive of people having their individual beliefs, whatever they may be. But at the same time, there's a separation when it comes to our government. I mean, we are not just a single religion country here. And it's that separation, that's really important. So, I mean, both things can be true, you can support people's individual beliefs to believe what they may believe, but at the same time, I think can say we have many religions. I don't even know what to think of the number of religions that might be practiced by people across the country. And, at the end of the day, people should be at their own will to practice whatever they want to practice. But, as a country we should have some separation here. Does that accurately reflect it?

Eliphaz Costus: 53:55

Yeah, definitely. I mean, all religious beliefs should be equally protected under the law. That's what I believe in and I don't want to speak for TST as a Right whole, but that's what most of our battles are about. And, when one's belief system or religion begins to infringe on the rights of others, that's when it becomes untenable. And, ideally, I think, in my mind there would be if we were to really follow the Constitution as far as separation of church and state. There would be no religion in public schools or really any representation would be completely neutral. But because that's not the current reality we live in anymore, it either has to be all or nothing. Christianity, and Christian monuments on a capitol grounds then in the capitol has to be open to any other religion being there monument there, if there's going to be evangelical after school clubs and public schools, then they have to be open to after school Satan clubs or a Jewish after school club, any religions after school club to maintain a fair and pluralistic society where all religions are equally protected and respected. And, then when it but when it comes to people's religious beliefs being protected in public education. If you do a thought experiment, if there was a Muslim or Jewish person at the school, you'd never force them to eat pork as part of the school policy, or you never forced them to violate any kind of dietary restrictions that were part of your belief system. And that's the same thing when it comes to hitting kids or secluding kids or even just not letting them go to the bathroom when they need to go. That's equally as violative, not that one is worse. It is like forcing somebody to do something that violates their religious dietary restriction. So that's something I like to to mention, when it comes to understanding that our principle. I feel like sometimes I just go on these rants and I maybe lose track of the original question.

Guy Stephens: 56:41

Oh no, rants are absolutely fine. I think we were kind going down that road and to some degree, if you're not protecting everyone's rights, you're not protecting anyone's rights. And part of the work that I know that TST has done has been about if you're gonna allow this, then you need to allow this as well. And, I would agree with you in terms of the some of the separation that is not there that probably should be there. But I think there's important points, I did want to just bring up real quick, and I'll share it again. So I did a quick look. And spanking children in schools is still legal in Oklahoma. That article, unfortunately, was behind a firewall, so I wasn't able to pull it up and read the details. I don't know if part of that got moved forward. But certainly as a statewide they'll allow it, and of course, Texas and others. We can do better. I mean there's no reason in 2023 for us to be hitting kids. I think we need to move past the compliance based approaches that so many people have about children. And I mean, even children's rights for whatever reason, still today, children are looked at differently as if they don't have the same human rights that anyone should have. And I'm a believer that we do need to respect children as individuals, if we want them to respect others as they grow and turn into adults. So we can definitely do better there.

Eliphaz Costus: 58:09

Exactly, and it's teaching kids that violence is an acceptable norm for them to get what you want. It just perpetuates harmful tendencies. I think there's a lot of evidence to back that up. That's definitely not the lesson we should be teaching our kids.

Guy Stephens: 58:32

Yeah I agree. Absolutely.

Eliphaz Costus: 58:35

And so many people say, Oh, well, I got licked a few times, I got spanked, and I turned out okay, but that doesn't really cut the mustard.

Guy Stephens: 58:47

And I questioned it. I mean, I questioned a couple of different levels. But, as you did when we were talking about that instance with what Mike Pence had to say, and I turned out, okay. Well, I mean, did you, if you believe that we need to hit kids? I mean, did you really turn out okay? I think there's a big question there for sure. And you know, I'm a big believer in preventing harm rather than trying to restore and repair. I mean, restoring and repair is certainly important, but anything we can do to prevent harm from happening in the first place is where we should start. And when we know better and we know how to avoid doing harm, we should absolutely do that.

Eliphaz Costus: 59:29

I'll hail to that.

Guy Stephens: 59:30

There you go. Awesome. So we're kind of wrapping up here and getting towards the end. If anybody that is watching has any questions or comments, you are welcome to put those in the chat. This has certainly been a different kind of guests than what we usually have on here. We're often talking to educators and experts in the neurosciences and different areas. And in fact I don't think we've had anyone from any religion on previously but always happy to have any anyone on. I'd love to have more conversations, especially as you know, I reached out before to other religious organizations. And I'd like to say more of them moved to a position, as you said, your position on all of these things is kind of the moral high road, right? We're not seeing that in many others, there was one exception, and I don't have it in front of me. So I don't want to try to go back from my memory here. But most of those that we reach out to either didn't respond or had very little to say on these issues, and I think it's important, I think the religions that we believe in and follow the organizations we belong to the more we can do to have other organizations, also supporting what I think should be just kind of the right way of doing things, I think it is really important. So, it's definitely been an interesting conversation with you today. And my hope is, people see the Satanic Temple and probably have an image in their mind of who you are, and what you are, and what you believe in. Which, of course, as you kind of talked about you're not out there having sacrifices or believing the actual devil is walking around and all of that. But you use that as a symbol. And I think back, I grew up in the 80s. So I listened to a lot of metal back in the 80s, a big fan of Motley Crue, and it shouted the devil, I remember hearing them talk about it, because people like, oh, that song is satanic. And they're like, No, the devil's authority we're talking about standing up to authority. And that seems to be very aligned with the Satanic Temple. It's this idea of change and using symbols to get your message out. And, certainly when you talk about it I think many of the issues that TST is behind they need attention. And there's a lot of different ways to advocate and get change made, but your organization has been effective at doing some things that I think are really meaningful. I would love to encourage people to do your due diligence on the organization. And, if the tenants resonate with you, and you're in a situation that we talked about, then there's the potential of help through religious beliefs. I would love to see an opportunity for TST to kind of push forward on this.

Eliphaz Costus: 1:02:37

Yeah, and to that end, I would encourage anybody who has any questions, or just interested in finding out more, there's information on the web link that you posted up there. But to also just reach out to me directly, email me at PCP@the satanic temple.com. There's that unfortunate acronym again. But, I'd love to just hear from anybody, anybody's thoughts, or especially if you have a concern about one of your children in school, and if there's a way we can help. I'd be happy to communicate with you about that. Or if you're a student in school, who's worried about any of these kinds of punishments and wants to find out more information, I'd be happy to respond to people directly.

Guy Stephens: 1:03:26

Yeah, we've seen students doing that to some degree back a few months ago in Cassville. There was a group of students, when they reintroduced corporal punishment, there was a group of students that were trying to make some noise. And I mean, great for them to do that and for groups like that to reach out to you as well.

Eliphaz Costus: 1:03:44

Yeah, and we're working on something, I can't Understood. But when you can, please share them with us. reveal all the details yet. But we are working on something happening in November, where there is going to be a direct We try to avoid it, because usually, wherever we do things action that we're taking to confront a specific school that has been using corporal punishment in a obscenely egregious way. I can't reveal the details yet in person, there's always often angry Evangelical, sometimes far right wing counter protesters. So we want to avoid that in this situation. But I believe the first in person action that protect children projects has done. But I think it really needs to be done. Because it's a school that through the Freedom of Information Act, I made a request to a specific school and found out that they had hit over 1000 kids and used corporal punishment over 1000 times last year. And so this is not data that we had available before but they sent me the numbers from the last three years. And it was going on an upward trend where the rest of the country is on a downward trend when it comes to corporal punishment. But, my jaw just dropped when I saw these horrible figures. So we are going to be taking direct action soon. And yeah, I don't want to end the show on on that kind of note. But that's a serious situation we're looking at because we don't have data from the most recent year, it's all from five years ago.

Guy Stephens: 1:05:37

And so much of the data is, and I'm glad to hear you did a Freedom of Information Act requests. I think that's critical. But so much of the data is unreliable. Like the restraint and seclusion data that the Government Accountability Office came out in 2019 and said to the Department of Education, hey, you've got to get this, right, your data is orders of magnitude off. We have large districts that are reporting zeros. That shouldn't be. There's not much reliable, but at the end of the day, one kid getting hit in school is one too many one kid getting put in seclusion is one too many. I don't believe that there's ever a place that I don't believe corporal punishment or seclusion should ever be allowed in schools. And, our thought is that the use of any kind of physical restraint should really be exceedingly rare. I mean, perhaps in a life saving situation, but that's about it. These things should not be happening overall. But, you're right. I mean, they do sometimes happen more than we realize. And even when we have the data, there's so much that goes unreported.

Eliphaz Costus: 1:06:37

And I'm sure that cases of seclusion and restraint are far underreported in comparison to corporal punishment. The data is better from what I've observed, and all the data I've looked at, I think it's probably better documented, although probably still a lot of cases left out. But when it comes to seclusion and restraint, I think it's not well documented at all. And hopefully, I think there is some, from what I've been hearing and reading, I think there's some momentum for a national ban on corporal punishment in public school. I think there's several members of Congress who were talking about bringing a bill like that forward. I don't know if you know about that. But, I would love for that to happen. And for at least that one punishment to be taken off the table, and then we can just focus more on seclusion and restraint.

Guy Stephens: 1:07:33

Yeah, we should have we should have federal legislation around corporal punishment and around seclusion and restraint. I mean, these are absolutely civil rights issues, they are human rights issues, they are disability rights issues. And as you have brought to the table today, they can be religious rights issues. That's not usually the terms that enter my mind. But you're absolutely right and I think that the TST is probably the only one out there that I know that is put those into religious rights. But I mean, these are things that should not vary from state to state, our rights should not vary from state to state.

Eliphaz Costus: 1:08:06

Yeah, I would love to see more bans of corporal punishment in private schools, too, because I think there's only two or three states that ban it in private schools.

Guy Stephens: 1:08:16

Maryland just did last year, as I recall. And that was after a long period of time. In fact, the same delegate that helped us with a Bill to prohibit the use of seclusion in our public schools, Delegate Eric Ebersole, helped with that ban on the private schools, because that had been still left in place for some time. I just want to bring up a comment here from someone who says, our current school board is very focused on punitive practices because they want to hold kids accountable. Our district has invested in SROs and drug sniffing dogs, but have not invested in therapy dogs. And this is what we see, a lot of its accountability. It's punishment and quite frankly even some of the things that don't sound quite as bad. I mean, that the idea that both rewards and punishments are ineffective, what kids often need is they need help, they need connection, they need support. It's not a matter of punishment, or even even gold stars. Gold stars are not going to help a kid that actually doesn't have the ability to do something, or is having issues related to a disability or whatever it may be. You know, there's a lot of approaches out there that just aren't working. So, I want to give you any final word that you might have, as we wrap up here, and I appreciate you spending the time with me and I hope that those that have joined us that this has been interesting. I had my own journey when you would reach out like Satanic Temple. What is that? And, I think as you mentioned, doing a little bit of due diligence really helped me realize that I think the core beliefs or tenants of the organization and the work that you're doing is really aligned with protecting kids and respecting all humans. So I appreciate you and the work that you're doing. I certainly want to encourage people to consider the opportunity that was presented here today. And in terms of getting support from TST, if they're going through all of these kinds of things. But do you have any final words you'd like to share with us as we wrap up?

Eliphaz Costus: 1:10:30

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I think this is one of the first podcast interviews I've ever done, at least in my capacity as the campaign director of protect children project. So it's a real honor. And you know, that's the reason why I reached out to you in the first place is because I was making a list of different organizations, who I thought would be good allies, or at least could communicate and share some resources. And yours was one of the first ones and primary ones that I was researching and looking into. So I was really excited and pleased when you responded in such an interested and thoughtful way and to give us a chance to connect, despite the baggage that comes with the name Satan.

Guy Stephens: 1:11:19

And, again, you've got to do your own research. And, I mean, in and having you here today, I look at what you're doing and what the organization is doing and this is certainly aligned and not harming children and doing better. And I certainly appreciate that. Like you said, initially, there's kind of a what, the Satanic Temple? And I'm gonna dig and do your research. And again, if it's not something that you feel comfortable with, I get it, and I respect everyone's rights and their beliefs and all of that. But, I'm also always interested in working together with people that are trying to do better for our kids trying to do better for our teachers trying to do better for everyone. And I know that's where a lot of your work focuses.

Eliphaz Costus: 1:12:11

Yeah, absolutely. And, although our campaign is focused on protecting the rights of our members of our religion, because that's the way we can have some sort of say in the matter, we can't really make a religious rights argument for for other religions, but we hope eventually it establishes a precedent that will help all other faiths and people who are non theistic, atheists, and any other set of beliefs could benefit from a precedent like this.

Guy Stephens: 1:12:45

Yeah. I mean, wouldn't it be nice if there were other faiths, that had similar tenants and beliefs that could also be protected by a similar mechanism. And, when you mentioned, to me, initially, the idea of going through religion as a way of protecting kids. You know, there's a lot of potential there. And, again, I'd love to see these waters tested in terms of how can we find other ways to protect kids, because a lot of what's being done, it's not working.

Eliphaz Costus: 1:13:23

And, I guess to close on sort of a lighter note, as you as you mentioned in my introduction, I'm also a musician. For those watching. Live, you can see my ukulele and my Greek Suzuki, behind me, which I got when I traveled to Greece, but I have started to create a few different satanic Kids Songs, which has never been done before. I'm not sure. But, I created a song during the pandemic, when I had nothing better to do called My Pal Satan, and I ended up showing it to you even before I was hired at TSD, but I showed it to people at the after school Satan club and ended up donating it to them to use as promotion for their campaign. And it's a really fun song that I think expresses and sort of de stigmatizes ideas about Satan and hell, and Satanists in a way that children can understand and shows that it's about compassion, being kind, accepting all identities, adhering to scientific beliefs, and also that hell and the devil aren't real in our opinion. We think they're just imaginary. But so that's my hopeful, positive awesome tidbit that I'll leave you with.

Guy Stephens: 1:14:51

We did put the link to the song in the chat. But I have to warn people, that it's very catchy and it makes it stick in your head. And, this idea of some of this work that you're doing, I know that there may be a perception like after school Satan club you're trying to indoctrineate kids into evil and all of these things, and nothing could probably be further from the truth. You know, really part of it is saying that if we're going to allow religious organizations at schools, you have to allow all religious organizations at schools, and here we have a club. And of course, from what I understand your club is about crafts and science. This is not about indoctrinating kids into a religious belief. But really is one to make the point that again, if you're going to allow in a religiously based club into a public school, then you've got to allow any religiously based club into a public school. But, there are some actual clubs that are up and running. And I've seen pictures of activities, and it's designed to be a fun thing for kids to do as well.

Eliphaz Costus: 1:15:59

Exactly, and certainly when it comes to that. I'll also be dropping another satanic song from my campaign fairly soon. We premiered it at Satan con, this year. And yeah, we're gonna be releasing that soon as a song for protect children project here. Older kids looking forward to presenting that as Tino as a informational video and song as a way to just get more awareness and knowledge about a student rights cards and about what protect children project does. And,I love using music and using my skills as an artist to promote this kind of work. And as so that's just something I wanted to mention to leave with everybody.

Guy Stephens: 1:16:49

Well, send me a preview when you can, I'd love to hear it. And when you have something that we can share, let me know that as well. Listen, I appreciate you making some time to chat with me today. And I appreciate you talking about the work that TST is doing, but more specifically about the work that you're doing with the protec children project, the project with the unfortunate acronym. But really, in all seriousness, it's a really interesting idea, which is the idea of we're going to use religious beliefs as a way to protect children. And, I think that, should there be a case that comes forward, it could have a lot of impact. So I'm really interested in where this might go. And again, encourage people to listen and listen with an open mind to this podcast, with all the information that's been presented to you. And again,

Eliphaz Costus: 1:17:44

Thank you so much guy, hail yourself. Thanks. thank you so much for joining us today. And we will hopefully be in touch with you again. So I'm going to let everybody else go. And you can hang on here as we end things up. But thank you for being here.