Child-Teacher Relationship Training: Seven Skills for Building Meaningful Relationships

Join us for “Child-Teacher Relationship Training: Seven Skills for Building Meaningful Relationships” with Dr. Claire Cronin.

Dr. Claire Cronin is a licensed mental health counselor passionate about supporting resilient communities and training front-line care professionals on trauma-informed care approaches. Her first exposure to restraint and seclusion was while embedded in a public school for children with behavioral concerns, where she witnessed firsthand the significant impact these practices had on creating trauma and stress for children. Since then, she has had a mission to support teachers and other front-line professionals in trauma-informed care through shifts in the philosophy of working with children and adolescents.

Transcript

Guy Stephens  0:12  

Well, hello and welcome I am Guy Stephens with the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint. You’ll have to forgive us. We're running a few minutes behind today. We had some technical glitches which hopefully we’ll have fixed them and we'll have no more during the next hour or so as we're bringing to you a another, another great AASR live. So, tell you a little bit about the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint, if you're not familiar with who we are and what we're doing here, the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint was started about four and a half years ago. We initially began focusing heavily on things like the use of restraint and seclusion in schools across the country. Our mission continues to kind of grow and expand. And of course, we don't want to see restraint and seclusion happening, whether it be at schools, residential facilities, troubled teen industry, medical settings, wherever it might be happening. We are really promoting better ways of working with all human beings, trying to move away from things like restraint, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, and corporal punishment, really trying to shift our approaches around behavior as well, you know, how do we do better when it comes to supporting people that are sometimes having a difficult time. So, the alliance has a lot of work around legislation and policy, we do a lot around education, and of course, individual support. So really happy to have you here today. And of course, we always have, well, I think, the best guests in the world. And of course, today is no exception, really excited about today's guest, Dr. Claire Cronin, who I'm going to tell you more about in just a moment here, but we're going to be talking a bit about relationships. And we're going to talk a little bit about child-teacher relationship training, which is something that I am really eager to hear about today. Of course, any of you that follow us frequently, you know how important relationships are, we often talk about the shift that's needed. It's trauma informed, it's neuroscience based, it's relationship driven, and of course, collaborative. So, excited to have our guest here. And I'm gonna go ahead and bring up our guest and introduce Dr. Claire Cronin. So, let me bring Claire, Hello, there. There you are. And we are here now with no glitches, no echoes, no buzzes, and hopefully all goes well. So, I apologize about the pre-show technical issues here. But really excited to have you here today. I'm going to tell folks a little bit about who you are. And we've got a really, I think, fun discussion coming up here. And I will ask people, if you're watching live, and I noticed the number of people watching live already. You know the drill, let us know who you are, in the chat. say who you are. You can tell us a little bit about yourself, you know, are you, are you an educator? Are you a parent? Are you a social worker, an occupational therapist? Tell us who you are. Also tell us where you're from. It's always fun to see, we have people from all around the world that will join into these live events. And not to put any pressure on, but we, we typically have people from New Zealand or Australia, Canada, United Kingdom, and of course, a lot of people here from the United States. So, if you're on now, let us know who you are and where you're from. So let me tell you about Dr. Claire Cronin, who is a licensed mental health counselor, passionate about supporting resilient communities and training frontline care professionals on trauma informed care approaches. Her exposure to restraint and seclusion was while embedded in a public school for children with behavioral concerns, where she witnessed firsthand the significant impact of these practices these practices have on creating trauma and stress for children, and of course, you know, we all agree that trauma informed approaches are important. But you've got to be really mindful that you can't be trauma informed at the same time subjecting kids to trauma, which can very easily happen. Then it says since then, that you have been on a mission, and I can relate to that because I'm on a mission too, to support teachers and other frontline professionals in trauma-informed care, through shifts in the philosophy of working with children and adolescents. And I feel like I need to stay up, you know, stand up and say amen. Couldn't agree with that more in terms of your mission. So, I had the opportunity to connect with you. And I think it was after, after an event and, you know, was, was learning about, you know, child teacher relationship training and sounded like fascinating work. And of course, we often talk here about the importance of relationships, the importance of relationships in trauma informed, you know, you know, approaches, but just the importance of relationships and human connection and how critical it is. So, just want to start off by saying, Dr. Cronin, thank you for being here today. And welcome and happy to have you joining us.

Dr. Claire Cronin  4:32  

Thank you so much, Guy. It's really wonderful to be here with you.

Guy Stephens  4:36  

Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited for our conversation over the next hour. And again, if you're watching live, tell us who you are and where you are from in the chat. And I see we already have somebody that's weighed in from Canada. And Sidney is a certified and approved EMDR consultant. So, Sidney, thanks for joining us, and hopefully we'll have other folks let us know who they are and where they're from. But let's To get started here, you know, we talked about kind of having a conversation about this. And, you know, the, the topic that we had here on your, your event is child teacher relationship training, seven skills for building meaningful relationships. And before we get into seven skills, let's talk a little bit about what child teacher relationship training is. You know, I know that, well, I'm sure there's many people out there that have had similar experiences to mine, where, you know, I remember when my son was in school, you know, saying, hey, you know, this is a relationship kid, you know, relationships are so important to my child being successful. And, you know, I also understand on the other side of feeling that's important, is this tremendous pressure, and number of priorities that educators or are really facing every day in the classroom. And, of course, after returning to the classroom, following the pandemic, you know, all sorts of new difficulties and challenges. And it's probably easy to feel overwhelmed and like, well, I just don't have time for relationships, you know, I've, I'm putting out fires here. And you know, I've often heard people say, like, I just don't have time to make a relationship with all my kids. And often, you know, kind of in reflecting I think, well, you know, there's probably one or two kids that you're working with that if you don't, you're not going to be able to help. So relationships are critical for supporting everybody. But why don't you tell us a little bit about what is child teacher relationship training?

Dr. Claire Cronin 6:32  

Sure, yeah, I'm happy to Guy. Child teacher relationship training is based in child-centered play therapy. So that is a modality that we've been using to work with kids and adolescents since basically the 70s. And it came out of the University of North Texas. Dr. Gary Landreth was the one that wrote the book on it, it's a really wonderful and developmentally appropriate way to work with children. That's very kind of humanistic. It's client centered. And it really believes in the full capacity of children to grow and heal and change. And what's really kind of radical about it at the time when it was first coming out was that we didn't try to use adult skills with kids, we recognize that play is natural language of children. And that if we really want to connect with children, we have to meet them in their world. And there's been lots of research, it's an evidence-based practice on how child centered play therapy really works to help children heal and grow in the ways that they need to. And so, the thought was originally was, you know, we have all these great skills, the seven skills that I'll be teaching you about today. We have these skills, why don't we at first, why don't we teach parents them so that they can learn to really be in deep relationship with their children, and the child parent relationship training came out, and they did lots of studies around that, how that was a really positive influence in the relationship between parents and kids. It reduced power struggles, it increased a sense of connection. And it had all these other, you know, outcomes that adults were worried about, which is like behavioral outcomes, you know, that type of stuff. But it really, it helped parents to feel truly connected to their kids. And so that was a big shift. And then we thought, as researchers, why don't we move this to teachers too, because who's in contact with kids, the most other than parents, it's teachers. So, it was adapted into child teacher relationship training. And I was very lucky to be part of a team at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, where we got to do research on child teacher relationship training, I got to work hand in hand with teachers and learning the skills. And what was really interesting about that work, and what they found with child teacher relationship training is the focus was on teachers like how do we keep great people doing great work, and reduce burnout and compassion fatigue, and child teacher relationship training really does that for teachers, it really gives them the skills so that they feel competent, so that they enjoy their jobs. They know how to relate to children. And there's still lots of research being done around that at UNC, at University of North Texas, at the University of Wyoming. But it's just been a really successful model that is adaptable to many locations. And so the training itself really helps adults kind of re-shift their mindset around what is it to work with children because oftentimes, I think, you know, my friends that are teachers, you're taught that when you work with children, you do to them, you know, you teach to them, they can't exist and be successful without you, when really from the counseling world is that we know that children have this inherent, inherent tendency to grow to change that they you know, the child you meet today will be the child you see tomorrow. They're in constant growth. And that's the incredible thing about working with childhood. So that's kind of where a child teacher relationship came from.

Guy Stephens  10:08  

So, you said, and by the way, now, I know why I wanted to put you back in North Carolina earlier like “you're in North Carolina, right?” No, Colorado. So, I knew there was a connection there. Yeah. So, you said that that that initial work began in the 70s. And the work that you were doing, when you began to kind of bring this training to parents. Now, when was that work being done?

Dr. Claire Cronin  10:31  

Well, parents, they rolled out in the 90s and early aughts, and really got a lot of evidence-based research around that. And then the CTRT rollout has been happening probably in the past, like five to 10 years. Dr. Phyllis Post was one of my mentors, Dr. Kristie Opiola, they're both at University of North Carolina at Charlotte. And they've really focused on implementing it not just in school districts with low behavioral struggles, but in school districts that have high poverty rates, that have a disproportionate amount of kids that are BIPOC, or newcomers in urban areas and rural areas, because I really wanted to see, you know, is this going to help teachers that work with some of the toughest populations, and it does and--

Guy Stephens  11:20  

Yeah, and of course, as you describe that, you know, there's also a lot of trauma in the populations that you're talking about and in the locations that you're talking about. And, of course, you know, what we see very clearly at the Alliance is that if you look at the kids, and the way, I often say is the kids that are misunderstood, right? If you look at the kids that are often being misunderstood, very often in the name of behavior, we're often talking about kids with disabilities and neurodivergent kids, black and brown kids, kids with a trauma history, and of course, very young kids. But the, the, the prospects, there are if you're a young child, who is being misunderstood and having a lot of things done to you, you know, versus kind of working with you, you know, the outcomes can be really poor. I mean, we find a lot of kids that are being restrained, secluded, suspended, expelled, sadly, even still subjected to corporal punishment in some states, you know, what we find is that, you know, these are kids where school is not a safe place, school is not a friendly place, school is not a welcoming place. And guess what, if we don't feel safe, and welcome, we're going to be less engaged, we're going to be more likely to drop out. And of course, we have kids that are moving down kind of that school to prison pipeline. And this work is so important, you know, these relationships, you know, you often hear people talk about how critical even just one adult relationship is, in terms of, you know, impacting the life. And, you know, the focus, I mean, sometimes I think people think about relationships, and maybe there's the thought that, “well, gee, I just don't have time for relationships,” or “it's not the priority” or “school should only teach the, you know, the academics,” which I uh disagree with so heavily, I can't even begin to say, school is about raising human beings. And there's a whole lot that goes into that. But, you know, nonetheless, this is a foundational building block. And, you know, there are some kids that really need this to make a difference in their lives. But I think it's easy sometimes for people to minimize the importance of how much impact that relationship can have, don't you?

Dr. Claire Cronin  13:26  

Yeah, certainly. I mean, you really feel for teachers, because they get pulled in a million different directions. And, you know, it's an evaluative relationship at the end of the day, and what we're asking for them to do as part of CTR T is to be not evaluative, and that's part of being in a really healthy relationship is not being so quick to judgment, to being more curious, being more open, and to, you know, really wanting to explore each unique child. And that can be tough when you have a classroom of 20, 25, 28 kids, you know, but the big piece around this is, we know that this type of approach really does make teachers jobs easier, and it makes it easier for them to sustain their work.

Guy Stephens  14:11  

Well, great. Right, right. Yeah, and of course, relationships are important all throughout the fabric of any organization, whether it's a school, whether it's a medical setting, whatever it may be. These, these things that we focus on that are really important. So, we want to focus on trauma informed approaches, we want to focus on relationships, these things are important, not just for the people that you're working with, and the people that you're serving, but to have those philosophies that are really kind of going through the fabric of the organization. So, you know, I saw a comment here that said, “Well, same for educators, if they don't feel safe, they end up leaving” and of course, absolutely, I think that's absolutely true. You know, and the important thing is that, you know, we need to be working on these relationship skills with everybody with the other adults. And you know, that's got to really be part of the, the, DNA for an organization. So, what does this look like? I know we're gonna get to kind of the seven skills. But at a high level, what does this look like in terms of the training itself? So, if you're working with a school, and you can tell us more about kind of where people can get training done, but if, if what does this training look like in practice?

Dr. Claire Cronin  15:25  

Yeah, so it's really adaptable to the environment, to the school to the school needs, but it highly focuses on working with teachers to learn each skill and the ways that we've done that is, you know, taking teachers off periods and meeting with them as small groups and having them work through each skill, learn about the philosophy of child centered play therapy, and then getting them to kind of roleplay through it to get to test out the skills with each other. It's a very collaborative approach, we ask that teachers or other frontline professionals that are involved, that they come prepared with a child in mind that they can really think about, like, “oh, how would these skills work with that child?” In some school settings where we've had the luxury and the ability, we've actually had the school set up a full playroom, which is, you know, like, what we use is play therapist so that the teachers can go into the playroom with the child, have a quality 30 minute session with them, and use the skills that's in a setting that's very different than the classroom. Because oftentimes, if they get the ability to be one on one with a kid that is generally very tough for them to be around, they see them in a new light. And that's something that we've, when possible, we like to do, but it's not a must. We also can operate these trainings in ways that are, you know, week to week or meeting with teachers over the course of semester, we can do them a little bit quicker, where we break them into several hour trainings under professional development days. And then a lot of it is kind of a mentorship opportunity. So, teachers that are more senior than I've taken the training that understand the skills, having the mentor teachers that are new to the skills and helping, you know--

Guy Stephens  17:13  

And that's one of the best ways to learn, right? I mean, when you begin to, you know, kind of take that experience and teach back what you've learned, I've always found that to be invaluable to have that opportunity. So, as you described a little bit about what child's teacher relationship training is, I'm getting a picture in my head, that may or may not be a good picture. So, I want to ask you a question. So, you talk about play, you talk about, you know, kind of the dynamic of you know, getting a child one on one. And now, what age kids might we be talking about here? And can these things, you know, because very, very quickly, I'm like, “Oh, this sounds like elementary school”, but what application does teach-- child teacher relationship training have when we're talking about middle school, or high school or what's, so tell me more, tell me more just about kind of the kinds of children that might be appropriate for this kind of approach?

Dr. Claire Cronin  18:05  

Yep, I've adapted this for middle school and high school youth. At my work, TGTHR, we use this intervention, when working with youth in our residential program, that's for 12 to 18 year olds, the skills look a little bit different, because with older kids, they do have more of that frontal cortex online, and they may be more verbal, or maybe not. And so, they may be more likely to engage in dialogue. But the nice thing about the skills is you can really take them and use them with adolescents. And it is all about re-shifting the way we think that we engage with youth, you know, we think that oftentimes you have to sit, and they need to talk to us, and it needs to be kind of this back-and-forth tennis match. And then when we say to a youth, “yeah, I get you, I understand” that that'll be enough. But really what they're looking for is actions that convey that “I hear you; I care, I understand.”

Guy Stephens  19:03  

You know, I think about Mona Delahooke, and she she's often talking about kind of serve and return and you make the tennis analogy here, but she's not just talking about kind of words, you know, not just talking about you know, but it's about interactions. It's about, you know, when you're playing alongside of a child into doing something and then responding to it, and we had an opportunity, recently, we were doing another event like this, and we were talking about improv. And I thought was really fascinating because I saw the connection here, with, because you think about serve and return, it's very easy to think about small children, and how that might be applicable. And the same is true, I think, with child teacher relationship training, it's very easy to imagine the small child but then what does this look like, you know, for somebody that's in middle school or high school? I'm glad you brought up, you know, the, the facility that you work at, TGTHR, because I think there are no doubt, you, you're working with kids that are far different than we're talking about when we're talking about elementary aged kids. So, I think that's really interesting. Um, I noticed your reaction when I said something about improv. Did you have a--was there--

Dr. Claire Cronin  20:05  

Yeah, no, I just I think that that's such a key component of the work that we do with youth, which is like a sense of humor and playfulness, an ability to kind of engage in that exchange with them, you know?

Guy Stephens  20:16  

Sure, sure. If we actually had, and I don't know how familiar you are with Mary DeMichele, but she's got a book called 1 Rule Improv and it really is about using improv as a trauma informed approach to building relationships and connecting with kids. And, again, this isn't just about, you know, playing alongside of a small kid, but it's ways to engage and do that, you know, engage in that serve and return and, you know, kind of build that relationship. That's great. I want to pause for a second, just bring up that we have a couple of more folks that have weighed in here, we've got Shelly here from my home state, Maryland, “I've also stressed to educators that my child first needs genuine relationships.” Absolutely. And I love that word genuine. You know, I've seen language used before, like therapeutic rapport, that's not language I love. You know, it really is about you know, and kids will see right through it. I mean, you know, it's not a matter of pretend that you're showing an interest. It's actually, you know, have an interest, have an opportunity. You said something earlier that sparked, uh, uh, Stuart Shanker in my head, and a quote that he says often, and I think I've got a poster here, but it says, “if you see a child differently,” and that's something we do differently, “you see a different child.” And sometimes those opportunities that you're talking about, seem to be where the opportunities there are to make those kinds of connections. Couple more folks here, see Sharain from Charlottesville, Virginia, we've got Sarah from Rochester, New York, and Ang from, let's see, Bellingham, Washington. And let's see, somebody here from British Columbia, Canada, as well. And of course, somebody here from the UK. So, we've got a couple of people joining us from different places. One of the questions that was asked very early on, and this is always the question you probably anticipate. Because when you begin to talk about relationships, and you talk about play, and you know, the question is, of course, how do you get buy in and you know, and people sometimes will look at things that are being done in the name of building relationship and building connection and building safety and go, “Oh, well, you're rewarding a kid “or you know that “these aren't things where we should be putting our focus.” So how do you get buy in from school administration for approaches like child teacher relationship training?

Dr. Claire Cronin  22:37  

Yeah, that's a wonderful question. It's been interesting, the school districts that we've worked with, one in North Carolina came to us because unfortunately, they were featured on the news for calling the police and having the police restrain children as young as kindergarten. And so, they reached out to the university that I was at the time and worked with Dr. Phyllis Post, and she put together a team to help support them. So, I think in some cases, school administration is in crisis. I think as you kind of alluded to Guy, there's often a parallel between, you know, school administrators or teachers feeling so fatigued feeling, so you know, burnt out that they are at a place where they feel defeated, or helpless or hopeless. And I think a big part of child teacher relationship training is instilling hope instilling belief, giving people the capacity to re-envision themselves. Oftentimes, I think we make things overly complex. When, you know, as I teach you guys, the skills, the skills are actually very simple. But they require a ton of like, buy in. And like you mentioned, genuineness and capacity for compassion and empathy. Which, if you have staff that are burnt out, or have compassion, fatigue, you kind of have to start there, right? And so, there's lots of really nice assessments that we've used in the past to help administration use to assess staff and their level of compassion fatigue, and helping, you know, kind of that foundation of like, how do you support staff so that they will be ready to engage in a training like this?

Guy Stephens  24:17  

And there was a comment that was coming up, as you were saying this, and this really resonated with me, because, wow, you know, I think it's really challenging. I mean, in terms of higher education, there are a lot of gaps, at least I think there's a lot of gaps. You know, I know when it comes to a lot of the, the punitive discipline, a lot of things like restraint and seclusion, you know, a lot of the things that could be preventative aren't being taught in higher ed and Kulveer said, “Teachers college should focus on relationships.” But yeah, I think that brings up the point that there sometimes are these deficits, these things that you know, as you're a first year teacher and have completed your program, things that you've not been given that really are going to be critical to helping you move forward.

Dr. Claire Cronin  25:00  

Yeah, and one of the nice things is at University of North Carolina at Charlotte was they did do a crossover between the teacher's college and the counseling college so that they could learn these skills and be part of it. So, I think that there is some movement in the field that way so that people do have the skills to feel--

Guy Stephens  25:17  

That's fantastic. So, before we get into the skills, because that's, that's why we're here, we want to hear these seven skills. Because you know, at the end of the day, you know, this can really help people to get ideas of things that they can do, again, whether as a parent or as an educator, I'm going to ask you to really kind of boil down, if somebody were to come out of this presentation, as we finish it, and say, “Hey, I just saw this great presentation on child teacher relationship training.” If they were to try to explain to somebody in a sentence or two, what it was, like the really high-level message, what would you say? And again, I mean, I know I asked you earlier, like, what is it and you gave me a great answer, but you know, really boil it down, how would you, how would you encourage an educator to sell their administrator on it or somebody else? How would you encourage them to kind of describe this?

Dr. Claire Cronin 26:11  

Yeah, I always think, you know, it, child teacher relationship training has immensely positive outcomes for children, and helps buffer trauma, helps them heal, helps them grow as children. But the more important thing that I think administration wants to hear is, this is going to help with your turnover rate, this is going to help teachers feel fulfilled and equipped to do their jobs. And this is going to help you have more positive outcomes in the classroom where there's less, you know, as they call behavioral disturbances, there's less opportunities to have to go hands on or use restraint or seclusion. This is also going to help teachers because it's traumatic for teachers or any paraprofessionals have to use restraint to have to seclude children. And so the more skills we give teachers that are these skills, the more likely they are to stay in the field, because I, you know, in my heart of hearts, and I think that's the belief with child teacher relationship training as teachers go into teaching, because they love children, and they want to be with them, you know?

Guy Stephens  27:13  

Absolutely. Well, yeah, it's really interesting, you know that you focused on that, because that's something that we talk about quite a bit, which is the same things that you can do to reduce the use of restraint, eliminate seclusion, reduce the use of a lot of other punitive approaches, the same things that you can do to help you accomplish that and ultimately have better outcomes for kids do lead to better outcomes for teachers and staff, you know, we see this we see data that shows a school that eliminates seclusion and reduces the use of restraint, you know, what happens, teacher satisfaction increases, staff turnover decreases, we end up creating better environments, but often, it's hard for people to make that jump, at least initially, they're like, “Well, you want to take these tools away from us, that's gonna make things much harder,” you know, but again, you know, that tends to be what you see kind of in the long run. So, I'm glad you made those points. So, let's get started. Let's get started with seven skills. And I'm just gonna let us kind of start and run through them. And I'm probably going to interrupt you periodically. And of course, those of you that are watching live, feel free to put questions in the chat as we go. But let's go ahead and get started with and I don't know, I feel like this is a top 10 list. Like, I don't know if we're going in backwards order, of it there’s any order at all, but I will let you take it away and run through these skills.

Dr. Claire Cronin  28:27  

Yeah, absolutely. Well, the order that they're in is really successive. So, the key skill is the first skill, and it's always the skill that people want to skip over. And it's what we call “be with attitude.” And gosh, don't adults think that we have be with attitude? We’re like, “oh, yeah, we really understand how to be in relationship.” No, we understand how to be in adult relationships, which are kind of this dynamic of like talking to one another, having these kind of very frontal cortex type of motivated, interactions, be with attitude is a mindset, it's a philosophy. You know, Gary Landreth, is very influenced by Carl Rogers, it's a way of being, it's a way of being curious, being open and using nonjudgement, and being comfortable to be with the child that sits in front of you that very day. One of the core philosophies is that when we create an environment in which a child sees, feel it feels seen, heard understood, that is when growth and change happens. And the metaphor that I like to use is, why do leaves change in the fall? Like, why did the leaves on the trees change in the fall, Guy?

Guy Stephens  29:43  

Well, you know, I actually took botany, but it's been a while ago, and, you know, so I'm not gonna go into that, but why do they change? Some gases are released? I don't know what happens exactly. But, you know, they change because there's a biological process that leads into change and you know, in the winter, it's probably less efficient for them to have the leaves. I don't know, there's a whole lot to it. I had to ask my son, he just started forestry program and he's great, he's doing really great, and it has, but I don't have a lifeline right now or I'd give him a call and have a really good answer for you.

Dr. Claire Cronin  30:13  

That was perfect. Yeah, usually people, adults, we get like really worked up like we're like, “oh, I don't know there's a chlorophyll something!” No, leaves change the fall because of the environment, right? They change because the sun changes its tilt, they change because the temperature. Leaves don't change in the fall, because there's something marked on the calendar that says, “Oh, this is the day when all the tourists come up for leaf peeping season,”

Guy Stephens  30:36  

Pumpkin spice latte, leaves changing and all those things that come in the fall, right?

Dr. Claire Cronin  30:40  

Right, yeah, and they certainly don't change because we tell them to change, right? We don't go up to our elm tree or oak tree and say, “now's the day, you have to change.” They change because of the environment, it's the perfect environment for them to change color and to fall off the tree. And that's absolutely true with children, they change when they are in the environment that is most supportive for change. And that is not because adults shove or push or jam it down their throat that “darn it, it's time to change.” So that is like what be with attitude is, is that can I be truly comfortable with the child that is sitting in front of me today. And it's deep, deep work, because we're asking us to accept in children what we may not accept in ourselves and that’s really tough. 

Guy Stephens  31:27  

And, and I think the other part of it is that we also have to be mindful that children are not miniature adults with fully, fully developed prefrontal cortexes in the same capacity in, you know, decision, you know, the same, the same, you know, kind of the equipped in the same way that adults are, especially when we're talking about very young children. And sometimes we put very adult expectations on children, even when it comes to relationships. So, what we're expecting in a relationship with a young child, it may not even really be developmentally appropriate. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, your, your leaf reminded me of I didn't get it wrong here. But the, what's the comment? You know, the thing about, you know, like, if plants not doing well, you know, you don't blame the plant, you change the environment, right, you know, yeah, different environment. So that's number one is kind of that that be with so it's just that attitude, you know, that attitude that you need to be with kids. And you said, that was kind of foundational?

Dr. Claire Cronin  32:25  

Foundational. And it's got a lot of, you know, we have to have a lot of multicultural competencies around that too, to be with children that might be from a very different background, different culture, different experience than we have. When I run this training, I've run it for after school programs that work with immigrant and refugee youth, there's one down in North Carolina called ourBRIDGE and so we talk a lot about cultural competency, and the ability to be curious about things and to really sit with a child that will be very different than you are, they express in very different ways than what you've grown up around and just to be gentle and patient with that. And to kind of use that cultural humility model of like, I may not understand, but I want to understand. So that's the first skill, the be with skill. 

Guy Stephens  33:14  

All right, let's go on to skill number two.

Dr. Claire Cronin  33:16  

Skill number two is tracking. So tracking is kind of like if you've ever watched a sports game, it's how the sports commentator may call a game over the radio. So, it is something where if we want to convey to a child that I see you, I hear you, it's not by hammering them with questions and being like, what are you doing, how's your day you what's wrong, I hear that all the time with kids that are crying or look upset. Tracking conveys, I see you and I noticed you in a very close way. And tracking is actually one of the easiest skills for teachers to use, because you can kind of move around the classroom and you can just say, “Oh, Johnny, you're coloring that piece of paper,” then move on to the next child, and you say, “Oh, you're working hard on your English homework.” And it's just noticing what they're doing. I use it all the time when I go into our residential program TGTHR when I walk into the room, I greet everybody warmly. And then I just notice, I say, “Oh, you're working on that video game again, I see that you're baking something over there.” It's just noticing what they're doing and saying it out loud.

Guy Stephens  34:22  

And I love that it's noticing, as opposed to praise, right? I mean, I really do. I'm a big fan of Alfie Kohn’s work. And I think, you know, the noticing is not putting value. It's just, you know, and we all, we all want that, we all want to feel like, you know, we're being seen and this is, I mean, really strategizing around like, how do you help someone to feel seen? Well, you notice them?

Dr. Claire Cronin  34:47  

Yeah, absolutely. And youth really like it. You know, younger youth you can do more tracking with older youth you maybe just sprinkling in every once in a while, but it just lets the youth know that you're really engaged with them. You really see them, so that's skill number two.

Guy Stephens  35:02  

Okay. So of course, we're running through all of this, you know, in an hour time. But assuming when you're when you're training this, you’re, you know, not only talking about these principles, but really kind of diving into like, this is how you do it and this is what it looks like. 

Dr. Claire Cronin  35:15

Mhmm.

Guy Stephens  35:16

Yeah, great. Great. Okay. Well, let's dive into number three.

Dr. Claire Cronin  35:18  

Yes, yeah, we do lots of practicing. Because as you see, we move through the list. It's a very different way of talking to kids. And usually, adults are very uncomfortable with it at first, but then they kind of come around. So, the next skill is paraphrasing. And this is kind of what we've all been taught to do around active listening, summarizing. So, it's, you know, a child tells you a short bit of information, and you summarize and say it back to them. So, you let them know that you really heard them, they're telling you something important. It could be something mundane, something that adults don't think is important, but oftentimes, your kids in their world, it is really important. So, it's important for us to kind of summarize, grab a piece of it, let them know that you hear it and kind of repeat it back to them. But it's not parroting. So parroting is saying you know, exactly what they said back to them. They don't want to hear that, then they'll say you talk funny.

Guy Stephens 36:09  

Probably so. So, give me an example. What, I mean, what's that look like?

Dr. Claire Cronin  36:13  

You know, if a child comes up and says, “I have so much homework to do, and then this kid and I got in a fight, and now I lost my lunch period,” you'd say, “Oh, you got a fight and then now you don't have lunch anymore.” It’s just that easy. 

Guy Stephens 36:30  

Right, right. Yeah. And feeling heard? 

Dr. Claire Cronin 36:35

Yep, Exactly. 

Guy Stephens 36:36  

Ok. Alright. So, I'm just trying to keep track here myself, we have be with, tracking, paraphrasing. What comes next?

Dr. Claire Cronin  36:42  

Yes, those are the top three and then we're moving into responding to feelings or motivation. And that one's, again, one that we think as adults we're really good at. But, actually, we're kind of culturally normed not to observe feelings out loud in a very direct way. And with children, the idea behind this is, A. kids want to hear that adults see them and that their feelings are real and valid, and B. that we need to express to them the language that they may need in the future. So, I have seen this oftentimes at school, a kid has been told to leave the classroom, they're sitting outside in the hall. As I walked by, I can see a child is crying, they've got their head down, they look like they're in distress. Instead of saying what usually adults say, which is “what's wrong?”  I say, “Oh, I see some tears there. And you look really sad.” And I give it a label. And I don't try to fix it. I don't try to change it. I just acknowledge the feeling that is there.

Guy Stephens  37:48  

Yeah, and you're also not, I mean, sometimes as adults we were really judgmental too. So, here's a kid and they might be like, “well, I guess you're gonna think next time before you do that,” or saying things that probably go the opposite and push a child that is already upset to into a state where they might be beginning to feel dysregulated.

Dr. Claire Cronin  38:09  

Totally, totally. And that's, it's the key skill that I think every adult jumps over to is they want to go right to teaching and lesson giving and coaching. But if a child is really dysregulated, and I've seen it on some of the other shows, like the hand model, the brain and their, their lid is flipped, and they're in the big feelings, they're not going to hear you. They're not going to hear your coaching. But what they will hear is a really gentle tone, and somebody's giving a short phrase of “I know you're sad,” or if you have a really mad kid, “you are so frustrated.” You know, at our residential program, kids may be really frustrated because a parent didn't show up for a visit. And they're stomping around and they're posturing, they're angry. And staff really wants to go right to you can't kick the table, you can't throw the chair. But they don't hear that what they need to hear is “You're so frustrated. Your mom didn't show up like she was supposed to.”

Guy Stephens  39:04  

Even listening to you say that and putting, putting myself in the shoes of somebody that's in that moment, having a difficult time. I mean, that sounds so much more validating, of course, that opens the door I think to and really is, is, I think really kind of a step into coregulation, right, which is where we really want to be heading. Sure. Okay. So, moving forward, we've got B with tracking, paraphrasing responding to feelings or motivation.

Dr. Claire Cronin  39:33  

Yeah, that's another big one. So, if you respond to motivation, you maybe you have got two kids in your classroom and you can see they're starting to get escalated, frustrated with each other and now the voices are getting louder, coming over and one kid has done something to the other kid about taking a toy or something they really wanted. And you say, you know, to the kid that's really escalated. You know, “you really wanted to play with that toy, unfortunately, Juan is playing with that toy.” So, you're responding to the motivation, you really wanted that you wanted to do something, that type of thing, which validates that they're not just behaving poorly out of nowhere, you know, for no reason, it just shows that kids are, you know, much like adults, they have the capacity to want to do things. And that's valid.

Guy Stephens  40:23  

Right. Sure. Sure. Okay. Well, let's go on to number five.

Dr. Claire Cronin  40:29  

Returning responsibility. So, this one is a big one in building autonomy and independence in kids, building their ability to feel like they have the capacity to do things on their own, oftentimes for kids, adults do for kids, what they can do for themselves. And that really robs them of the opportunity to learn and grow and fail. And there was a really nice article, actually, in the New York Times in the past couple of weeks about increasing autonomy and independence for kids. And one of the principles said that, after they had made a focus on that, and returning responsibility to kids, that she saw less feet sticking out. And the writer said, “Well, what does that mean? Like they were tripping each other less?” And the principal said, “No, it was less kids asking for adults to tie their shoes.” And this is exactly the philosophy behind that is that kids have the ability to do for themselves and to think in creative ways that adults can't think of. And so oftentimes, we'll see this, as you know, you have a child that comes into your classroom, and they say, “I can't, I can't do this,” or “I need help.” And you know, it's something that they could probably try to do on their own. You say, “Why don't you give that a shot? Why don't you give it a try?” or “I think you may know, have, have, an idea about how to do that,” instead of jumping in to do it for them?

Guy Stephens  41:52  

Yeah, it kind of goes back to something you said earlier, that resonated with me for a lot of reasons. But it's the, you know, the idea behind this is, it's not about doing things to kids, it's not about doing things for kids, it's about doing things with kids. And that seems to me to be such, such a foundational approach to working with anyone but, but, kids in particular, I mean, you know, I mean, I mean, for what for what it is, there's, there's sometimes very different values put on children. I mean, the, the, idea of childism, I mean, the idea that we look at children differently than we almost look at children as not being deserving the same human rights, which can be seen by a lot of the things that happen to kids. But I mean, this really is about like doing with and not doing for or doing to. And don't we all do better, under those circumstances, right? Don't we all do better when people are working with us rather than doing thing to, doing things to us or even doing things for us?

Dr. Claire Cronin  42:53  

Yeah. And it conveys it's a strong message. I mean, especially as an adult, like when somebody says, you know, “can you do this thing? And can you take care of it,” and I really feel like, “oh, I can do it,” that relates to me that people believe in me, people know that I can rise to meet expectations. Even if it's small things, it feels really good for kids to have the opportunity to do it their own way. And that means as adults, we have to be comfortable with the creative ways that they may come up with to do things.

Guy Stephens  43:21  

So how then do you handle the situation where in doing that, you know, in kind of setting up to say, let's return responsibility, knowing that there are…well, let me let me try to phrase the right way. You know, we've often seen situations where a parent, a teacher or staff member, looks at a kid that is not meeting their expectation in some way or another and goes, “I know, they can do it, because they've done it before” but of course, that brings up an entire question, we actually had a whole piece on this recently about kind of the idea that our capacity fluctuates, you know, in any given day, any moment of time, the stressors that are affecting us, a lot of things can affect our capacity in the moment. So, what do you do if, if the kid can't do it at that point? And how do you then transition to that?

Dr. Claire Cronin  44:14  

Yep, absolutely. And that kind of goes back to be with attitude. Because if you're really being with a child in that moment, and you can see that they're having a struggle that day, they've had a rough day. And they really don't have the kind of emotional capacity to deal with the distress of trying that new thing again, you know, what that be with attitude that okay, maybe it's time for me to do it with them right now. Right? Give an effort together.

Guy Stephens  44:39  

Right, and of course, these steps are not a linear journey, right? These steps are things that might have certain foundational elements like being with, but you know, at any point, they might be like, “Hey, let's go back to this paraphrasing.” So, here you know, after you know, the child expresses you why they can't do something right now. Maybe that's a moment that you, you paraphrase, or maybe something that they say is something that you kind of use that tracking, you know, approach with. Okay, gotcha.

Dr. Claire Cronin  45:04  

Absolutely, yeah. And I think that, you know, returning responsibility is not something to like foist upon rugged individualism onto children, like they've got to bootstrap themselves up to the next skill. But it is to look for these micro-opportunities where we don't jump in, I see it oftentimes with highly anxious children that that shut down, they'll say, I can't do it, that type of thing. And adults will do for them, what they can do for themselves in the smallest ways, and it robs them of the opportunity to kind of tackle some, some anxiety, you know, for kids that have suffered through a lot of trauma or abuse and neglect, they may feel really helpless. And if we perpetuate that by continually doing things for them, that we know that they could do themselves. At the residential center, we often talk about, like, just helping them to learn some life skills around cooking for themselves, but doing it with them, not for them. It's really empowering for them, because making a meal and a place where you don't have food insecurity that can feel really good for kids.

Guy Stephens  46:10  

Yeah, I would also think kind of that, you know, again, back to returning responsibility, you know, being mindful of, you know, kind of can't versus won't, you know, very often as adults, we look at things and go, “Well, this, this child's refusing, this child won't do that.” And there are moments in time where we all can't do that, we can't meet the expectation. So, I think, you know, having this foundation in this, you know, set of approaches that you can use, and knowing when to fall back, right. I mean, knowing when to “Okay, well, yeah, this is not, you can't do this right now. And that's okay,” you know, right? 

Dr. Claire Cronin   46:45 

Yeah. So, moving into, we'll do it together. 

Guy Stephens 46:49

There you go. So that that brings us to number six, then.

Dr. Claire Cronin  46:51  

Yes, and that's esteem building. So, this kind of goes back to what you had mentioned before. Esteem building is about recognizing the efforts of children, instead of kind of praising or being super evaluative. Kids know that there's two sides to a coin. So, if you're one of those adults, that gets into a pattern with a kid that says, “Good job way to go, you're you're doing the best, you're smart,” that type of stuff, they know that it's there's a flip side to that coin. So, if they aren't having a great day, if they're struggling, they know that an adult can switch over to “bad job, you didn't do the right thing. You're not a great kid, you're acting—"

Guy Stephens  47:30  

That your lover approval is contingent upon them doing well, right?

Dr. Claire Cronin  47:34  

Totally. Yeah, yeah, totally. So, esteem building is noticing the efforts of children, this one is also a really nice one to use in the classroom, because you can go around while children are working independently or in small groups and say, “you're working together with them. You're lending your pencil to that child. I can tell you're working hard on that.”

Guy Stephens  47:54  

Right. But not followed by “good job, you get a star,” right? 

Dr. Claire Cronin  47:59  

Right. Exactly. Which is a big shift for a lot of professionals and teachers, they really want to they think that, you know, kind of that external motivator is what gets kids to do things when really that's not true.

Guy Stephens  48:11  

Yeah. I mean, the research actually shows the opposite, that it kills intrinsic motivation, when you begin making everything relying on that.

Dr. Claire Cronin  48:18  

Yep. So, esteem building is just noticing efforts. It's also noticing, you know, I have kids that come in, and they will be the experts on a subject. And they will tell me all about World of Warcraft or Pokémon. And instead of me being like, “wow, that's really cool. You're so smart.” I say, “you know so much about that.” Or “you really took a lot of time to learn about that.” And so, it's really responding to them in a way that says, “I see the efforts that you've put in around that,” not that it's good or bad, “I see that.”

Guy Stephens  48:51  

Well, it's interesting, you say that I was having conversation with a colleague recently, somebody that I know and respect quite a bit. And we were talking about this idea that, you know, that there are times where you need to empathize with people, even if you don't necessarily agree with where they are. There's, there's a value, and there's a value and kind of empathizing and hearing and listening. I mean, it doesn't mean that you have to agree with everything they're saying, I thought, well, you know, that it actually really makes a lot of sense when you look at it in that, you know, in that way. I mean, you know, listening, you know, providing, you know, the things that you're talking about, you know, you can, you can have differing opinions, but still, we want to be heard, we want to be valued. And you know, there's another time sometimes to go in different directions with all of this as well. But in a situation where somebody's having a hard time, they need that connection, they need that support.

Dr. Claire Cronin  49:51  

Absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting because like I was talking about before, we're used to a very adult way of dialoguing with people, and sometimes kids will come up and I've seen adults do this, kids will tell them all about that thing that they know a lot about, or they feel the expert on and adults roll their eyes and say, “oh my gosh, I have no interest in that whatsoever.” And they missed a really key opportunity to connect with a child and to say, “you know so much about that.”

Guy Stephens  50:17  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's unfortunate, because, you know, not only have they missed that, but they've actually missed a lot more if that's kind of the response. Couple quick comments here to get then we'll continue down the list. Sidney says, “adults in schools and group homes should be coregulators, if not all the time, most of the time, great content here.” Dana said, “these are great practical strategies that can be used in the classroom for all students.” Yep, agreed. “It just takes prioritizing relationships as a foundation for creating a safe learning environment.” And, you know, I think even beyond that, as I reflect on that comment, one of the things I think about is something we talked about a lot, which is it's about compassion and connection, not compliance and control. But we often end up in situations where the, the thought around the classroom is all around behavior management and compliance and control. And when we're missing that really important part, because when you build these relationships, you know, the child that may have been having a difficult time and may have been having big behaviors, suddenly feels safe and seen and heard, and wonderful things can happen. But when you're pushing for that compliance and control very often, that's what pushes the child who's got maybe tremendous potential to do well, if properly connected. And I think we all do, we all have a much greater capacity, when we feel valued and feel heard. But you know, that that kind of traditional mindset that we're here to learn, and that's the only priority, I think, sometimes is a little counterproductive. Any, any thoughts? 

Dr. Claire Cronin  51:59  

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, even the idea of classroom management, that phrase is such a setup for disappointment for all parties, right? It just, it conveys such a wrong power dynamic that immediately puts the precipice upon the adults to do to children, and, you know, dismisses the child's worth and value in the classroom, you know?

Guy Stephens  52:25  

And again, do with, do with, do with, not do to, not do for and that seems to be a theme running throughout this as well, is that idea. Alright, so let's see what else we have here. Right. So, “great practical strategies.” Okay, and Erin said that, “saying yes, you can do this and providing no additional supports for someone is just invalidating them.” Yeah. And again, realizing that because we can do something at one moment in time doesn't mean we can do it all the time. And again, you know, back, back to another step, sometimes this is where we need support, connection, validation. All the things that you're talking about here throughout this process. It's great. Let's see. And Claudia said, “great content. Thank you for sharing this all with us.” So, we are on number, we've already gone through six, haven't we? Yeah, we're getting to number seven, and right on time too. Our timings looking really great for this. I feel like, you know, I feel like there should be a drum roll. I don't think I have a drum roll here. I mean, so somewhere, I might have something, but it's probably trouble. But let's get to number seven. So, what is number seven here in the seven skills?

Dr. Claire Cronin  53:30  

Yes. And this is the skill that educators and professionals are always the most excited to learn about. But we save it to the end, because we really have to make sure that they've mastered the first six skills. And it's limit setting. It's the one where they you know, they come to a training, they're like, “how do I deal with a child that's in crisis or has big behaviors and I need to manage it, manage it,” like you said, Guy, this skill helps with power struggles, it helps with redirecting children, all of that type of thing. But you can’t do this skill, if like, some of the commenters had said, if you're dysregulated, if you don't have your be with attitude, if you aren't well grounded and open to this child. So that requires a lot from the adult. So, you have to start from a baseline of being really well grounded and compassionate and in relationship with the child. If the relationships not there, limit setting is not going to go well. If this is a complete stranger to you, if this is somebody that you haven't really been genuine with, it's going to be a struggle. So that's why we do all the other skills, but limit setting is actually a combination of the skills so it's the AC T model. And A stands for acknowledge the feeling first. So back to my example of a child that's really escalated. They've got a chair there. You can tell they're mad, they're frustrated. You want to acknowledge their feeling first and you want to say “Susie, I see you are so frustrated right now, you're so mad.” And when you're doing this, you're not shouting in over 15 Kids, you're not standing above them, you're not, you know, gesturing to them in a way that's very aggressive, you're coming up to them, you're getting down to eye level, you're being present, we call it nose to toes, you're saying, “Johnny, I see that you are so frustrated right now.” And then you're going to communicate the limit. And the limit in the classroom and a lot of settings is, “but the chair is not for throwing.” And it's a very funny way of phrasing things. But it's a way that we know that children understand, instead of saying, “don't throw the chair,” or “stop that” or “quit it,” we first acknowledge the feeling, which helps them know that you're queued into what's going on for them, then you communicate the limit, the chair is not for throwing, and then you target an alternative. Which could be and this is always kind of based on your experience with the child and your relationship with them. You will say to them, you know, “but if you want to throw something, you can throw the beanbags, you can throw this paper,” you're giving them an alternative, that still allows them to express the feeling that they need, but you're not doing it in an unsafe way. So that's ACT, and that's our limit setting strategy.

Guy Stephens  56:15  

So let me ask you this. You know, if we're talking, so, of course, you know, you painted a scenario here that is not, not a not an unfamiliar scenario of things that we see that often lead to things going incredibly badly, that might lead to, you know, a kid being restrained or secluded or other things happening. Getting the sense that a child is quite dysregulated, that moment time where they're holding the chair, knowing that at that point that they are so dysregulated they're not really necessarily in their cortex. You know, I'm thinking about this. And there's a bit of this that relies on cortex. So, what if the kid is really super dysregulated? I mean, you know, yeah, and of course, I'm a big, you know, kind of believer that, you know, I mean, sometimes in the moment, and it's like, we have to keep doing all the things we're doing to be able to connect and to coregulate, because only through that connection and coregulation, can we get them back to the cortex enough that some of these things will make sense. But how do you, you know, kind of with that ACT approach, knowing that a kid might be really having, as you know, Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson say, flip their lid? How does this work in that case? Or do you need to, do you need to do something else before you get that limit setting? Because again, if you've got a kid holding chair, they might be so dysregulated, that, that cortex appeal may not be getting to them? So how do you handle that kind of situation?

Dr. Claire Cronin  57:52  

Yeah, absolutely. It's, that's the thing is we don't ever teach limit setting without the first six skills, right? We're hopeful that in the lead up to that before their lead is fully flipped, that you have done something like tracking, that you've summarized, that you've been the be with attitude, and that we know that children respond well to a safe relationship. And so that's why I say don't work with kids that you don't know. Believe me, I've done it, learned the hard way through experience. And that, you know, if a lid is flipped, your presence is going to be the key. So, my presence is not big and scary. It's not stomping across the room. It's not moving too fast. It's moving fairly slow. And it is really I think one of the good case examples I have from that is at one of the schools that I worked at, in North Carolina, where there was a seclusion room, and they were using physical restraint, how it escalated was the child was supposed to be working on their iPad, the teacher was giving commands from the desk across the room. So, they were first humiliating and shaming them in front of the classroom. They were saying, you know, “get that done. I told you to have that done 20 minutes ago. Get that done.” And then they saw the child wasn't doing it on their iPad, they were engaging in some other activities. The teacher stood up, they came over, they hovered way over this kid, and this is a fairly small child. They're hovering over them standing over them. And they're pointing--

Guy Stephens  59:19  

Adults are so bad at picking up how harmful that is like, you know, if I came and hovered over you or you hovered over me, the impact that has on us, yet as adults, we'll do it we’ll, we'll go in with the harsh face and the tone of voice and hovering above. And that's so threatening. I mean, you're just sending that that, you know, that child off into a fight or flight state,

Dr. Claire Cronin  59:41  

Yeah, totally. And so, I was in the classroom at the same time, that child immediately went into a flight state, so they tried to elope and then they went and hid under their desk. And what I did was I came and I sat on the floor next to them. I gave them a couple feet, but I could see they were totally moving into a shutdown state, you know, that this was a trauma response. And I sat on the floor, and I just use that first a part very gently, “I know that you're so frustrated, I know that this is scary for you” and it takes patience. Like it took me a solid 10 minutes.

Guy Stephens  1:00:17  

You know, so, so I'm gonna say, and I mean it’s critical what you left out there, because what you described you were doing be with before you even got back to that. Yeah. And that's so critical. Not to mention the relationship itself then creates, creates a currency that you have to be able to not dysregulate a kid further, who's dysregulated because this child knows that you're, you're someone that's safe. You have that potential to coregulate and get them back in their cortex, where they can then process that, you know, that you're trying to do with them. And that's, yeah, that's great. We've got a couple of comments. I want to hit here. And then I've got a kind of a challenging question for you here in a second. Okay, so Sidney says, “I'm a fully trained play therapist, and I often use child centered play therapy approach,” and actually Sidney is also a volunteer here with the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint and in Canada, and said, “Please tell you that you're channeling Gary Landreth. She will get that reference.” I don't. So, you do. That's good. “Greatly impressive how Claire is bridging this into the classroom. It's often not very easy to do Claire's awesome.” So, you've got a fan here already. We’ve got a comment here. I love this. I love this from, from, Erin, “I'm taking this to my child's IEP meeting tomorrow. This staff does not know how to appropriately deescalate.” And, you know, I do encourage you, you know, the we do these and we think you know, but, you know, Claire, we've got an audience here that we've got parents, we've got self-advocates, we've got teachers, administrators, paraprofessionals, social workers, you know, occupational therapists. What unites the folks together that are part of our community is kind of that belief that we can do better. And when we do these events, one of my not so secret motivations is that when we do this, I want people to share them, if you're a parent, share it with your, your team, if you're a teacher, share it with your parents, you know, this is, these are things we need to share if we're going to change, you know, kind of what's happening. Let's see. So, Erin says “this limit setting will not work without the child feeling safe with the limit-setter.” Right. That's exactly kind of the point that I was trying to get at is that, you know, if we're not feeling safe, if we're not feeling regulated, of course, by building upon this foundation and building yourself as a safe, trusted person through that relationship. And this is work that takes time, but it's the things that you're building upon. So, when you begin to do this, yeah, no, I mean, just like any of us, we don't build relationships overnight. We build them by continuing to use the same practices. So great point here. Sidney back saying, “You’re so right Erin.” Let's see, “No approach works with unregulated adults except restraint and seclusion…” Yeah and sends message they’re having control. Let’s see. “All of these things that she is saying that ruin it are things that have continued to do to my child. Then it ends up in multiple escalating restraints and claimed my child was choosing to be non-compliant.” I'm sorry, that that's the experience that you're having. And, yeah, very often, you know, one of the things that we see is that, you know, well intentioned staff not only fail to deescalate a child who's having a hard time, they're actually coescalating versus coregulating. These are principles that you're talking about here, that are really about coregulating, building relationships, creating safety, you know, that safety piece, which was mentioned earlier, and that's foundational. If we don't feel safe, we're not able to be in a place that we're ready to learn. You know, we had a one of our volunteers, Jennifer Abbanat, who wrote an article at one point, and I love the title of this Regulation Before Education, right? We need to be regulated before you know this part of us is ready, the cortex is ready to learn. So, all of this is fantastic. And we've worked through all seven of these. And really amazing. And you know, it's funny, because on a face value, some of these things seems so simple, but it makes such a big difference in, and sometimes simplicity is really difficult. It's really difficult to make these shifts, because, you know, we're under a lot of pressure, you know, educators are under a lot of pressure to you know, whether it be grades or conduct or whatever it may be to meet certain expectations. So, I want to ask you, I said, I had a difficult question for you or a hard question for you. And that is that sometimes we begin doing some of the right things, but we continue to do a lot of the wrong things. And those wrong things can be well intentioned but can undermine the right things that we're doing. So, give you kind of an example here. So, if you were to have a school, get training in this type of approach, are there things that you might tell them to stop doing or to no longer do and the reason I bring that up is that I think about some of the things that are out there in our classrooms that have happened quite commonly. And they're not necessarily, they're not necessarily intended to do harm, but sometimes are undermining relationships without people even realizing it. So, when we are doing behavior charts, or we have a stoplight charter, we have things like this, these things are not only not very helpful, but they really change a dynamic. I mean, if you're saying that, you know, what color you get on your behavior chart is contingent upon, you know, how you do and you're putting, you’re devaluing a relationship? That's my opinion, you don't have to agree, you can tell me I'm wrong. But okay, like, my question for you is like, these are fantastic things to do. These are fantastic ways to build relationships. Are there key things that you know, in doing this work that people want to maybe not do, or do differently to make sure that they're not, on one hand, trying to build relationships, but on the other, inadvertently doing damage to them by creating like a dynamic of power differential or whatever it may be? So, any thoughts on that?

Dr. Claire Cronin  1:06:04  

Yeah, yeah. Well, you read my mind with the behavior charts. Yeah, there's nothing worse than a behavior chart, I think, you know, a lot of the behavioral approaches that was, you know, that's been a huge shift in the child psychology field as we don't use behavioral approaches, because we know that just behaviors are telltale signs of more intense things going on for children. And we just have to--

Guy Stephens  1:06:24  

Can you say that about three more times for? And you say that, and I shake my head, and people that are listening, shake their heads, but many of these approaches are very prevalent in our schools across the country. These are things that people are being taught, and even sometimes, systemically, you know, we have a lot of things that are contingent upon rewards and consequences and not helpful to building relationships, in fact, you know, not helpful for building intrinsic motivation. So yeah, I don’t mean to pause you there, but it's like, that's such an important point. How do we make that shift, though?

Dr. Claire Cronin  1:07:01  

Yeah, I think it's tackling people's fear, because it's something that they've been using for a long time that maybe they feel really well-versed in. But I always challenge them, like, has it been successful? And do you feel as an educator or a professional, that it is aligned with who you are? You know?

Guy Stephens  1:07:20  

Right, right. Yeah. I mean, you know, does your, does your impact match your intent? Right? Does what you're hoping to do as an educator match what the impact might be. And sometimes it's easy for those things to become misaligned. Yeah, that's a great point. So, we are nearing about the end of our time here together and that went really, really quickly. I was I was worried we wouldn't get to all of the, the seven here. But that went really quickly. I want to give folks a chance, if they have any final questions or comments to put those in the chat. This has been really interesting and I'm sure that we could probably dive in much more deeply into this as well. But again, to recap, you know, we had, we had kind of the seven principles here which are be with, tracking, paraphrasing, responding to feelings or motivation, returning responsibility, building esteem and limit setting. And I do like that limit setting follows up kind of in the in the rear. Because sometimes we often are thinking about the outcomes that we might want, versus the outcomes that are really important to make the change. And I think by doing that intentionally, you're building to that point where you're building, you're not in a position to be effectively limit setting if you haven't built that relationship. I mean, you can do it, you can do it. Is it gonna work? Our behavior isn't--right. Right. Right. So, I love that you've done that there. Okay, so getting some comments here in the chat real quick. Dana said, “I train staff to be the thermostat, not the thermometer.” And that's so important, because we do you know, I mean, as adults or educators, control the weather, and you know, we're not just responding to it. We have a “thank you so much.”  “Oh, I missed this. Will watch when it’s posted.” Yes. And they're always posted. In fact, you can watch them almost right after we finish here live. You can get them on YouTube, LinkedIn, on Facebook. And of course, you can listen later as audio podcast. “Thank you.” Your biggest fan here, “Claire is awesome! I appreciate all of her work!” Anastasia, “beautiful!”  “Where can I find more information about these seven principles? Is there a place with handouts or something that I could share with my child's team?” So, any anywhere that people can find resources on this, and we can try to put the link in as well?

Dr. Claire Cronin  1:09:34  

Yeah, absolutely. If they Google University of North Texas play therapy. Their website is pretty robust, and they can look on there for not just child teacher relationship training, but also the parent child relationship training. They've got some handouts on there. They've got loads and loads of research, and they've got all of the foundational child centered play therapy.

Guy Stephens  1:09:55  

And what university was that?

Dr. Claire Cronin  1:09:56  

University of North Texas.

Guy Stephens  1:09:58  

University of North Texas and maybe Courtney can look that up if she's still back behind the scenes and put something up in the chat to give people a link to where that is. Fantastic. And what if, what if we have a teacher here that wants to, you know, bring an idea about training to their district, or we have a parent that says, “hey, you know, I learned a little bit about this in an hour that I spent on a on a podcast,” where might they go to find actual training that they could get for school or professional development?

Dr. Claire Cronin  1:10:27  

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, depending on where they're at in the country, I would either reach out to the University of North Texas, or to the University of North Carolina at Charlotte directly. They have pretty robust programs where they're training graduate students and PhD students like I was at the time in this type of thing. I'm also happy if people want to email me, I can help direct you to who I think might be the closest to your regional area.

Guy Stephens  1:10:53  

Yeah. And I was gonna ask you in that vein, do you do any consulting or working with schools or districts? Okay. So, they can also contact you potentially as well for? Okay, fantastic. All right. So, all right, “Teacher training is in my child’s IEP.”  Good job, that's a, that's a thing you can put in your IEP that many people don't realize, I remember learning about that early on with my son and putting something in there for a requirement, really important. This has been a fantastic conversation; it's been great to have you here today. I really, you know, it's fun, you know, we've talked about whether to do a slide deck or have a conversation, it was a really fun conversation to have. So, I really appreciate you coming here and spending the time with us. I'm going to wrap up here in a second, you can stick around, well, we'll end here in a second. But I do want to thank everybody for coming out today and joining us. And as always, do want to remind you, you know, share these, share these events, with, with, other parents, with other families, with educators with administrators, you know, the way we create change is by bringing awareness, bringing awareness to things that we can do to, you know, really do better. And one of the core beliefs that we have here at the Alliance is that if you know better, you do better. And I'm a huge proponent in the fact that not only if you know better, can you do better, I'm a huge believer, if you know better, you have an obligation to do better. So, I think that's really, really critical as well. So, with that, I just want to mention here real quickly. And before I do, I'm just gonna ask you, Claire, the question, I'd like to ask people sometimes, and I asked this at the very end of the conversation, but is there anything else you would like to share with us?

Dr. Claire Cronin  1:12:34  

No, I just really appreciate you all hosting me and all of the wonderful work that you're doing out there. I think, you know, I really, I believe that we're making big progress in this country, and that we just need to keep pushing forward. You know?

Guy Stephens  1:12:47  

And that's a good message to hear, because sometimes it feels overwhelming, like, feels like we're not making progress. But I agree with you. And also, you know, of course, we didn't get into much of this. But at some point, we'll have to kind of go back and talk about the work that you're doing at TGTHR, because I know you're doing some amazing work there. You talked about kind of your role and work in residential, and of course, you know, in many cases, residential programs are programs that aren't heading in the right direction, in many cases, and I remember spending some time talking to you about the work that you were doing. It sounds like you're doing some amazing things and having some fantastic outcomes. So, we'll have to think about having you back as well, to talk more about that. I do want to let folks know, we'll be back again in two weeks. And I've actually got another live event in about an hour that I'll be doing. And that's with advocating for kids, I'm going to actually be on their show. So, if you're around, come join us. I think I've got it linked on the Alliance site as well. But join us again in two weeks. We've got Meg Baldwin joining us. We're going to talk about something really exciting: Balance Auditory Exercises: Patterned, Repetitive, Rhythmic Movement for Everyone. I can't talk here at the end of the day. But Meg’s got some fantastic things to share with us. So, I'm really looking forward to that. So, with all of that said, again, want to thank everybody for joining us. Dr. Cronin, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. Those of you that are just joining on make sure you go back and you watch this and share the video. So, we'll see everybody again soon. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai