One Rule Improv: A Trauma-informed Approach for Classrooms and Beyond

Join us for “One Rule Improv: A Trauma-informed Approach for Classrooms and Beyond” with Mary DeMichele.

Mary is the creator of One Rule Improv, a research-based and trauma-informed approach to learning, teaching, and applying improv. Used in a variety of settings, including classrooms, trauma-informed schools, residential treatment centers, and homes, teachers, clinicians, and parents are consistently amazed and grateful for the simplicity and benefits of the approach and how comfortable they feel participating. She co-authored groundbreaking, published research on improv's effect on the brain and is featured in the documentary, “Act Social-Using: YES AND to Save the World from Within,” Psychology Today, and Forbes. Mary is a certified academic and special needs teacher

Transcript

One Rule Improv_ A Trauma-informed Approach for Classrooms and Beyond

Mon, Sep 18, 2023 3:06PM • 1:19:08

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

improv, people, game, trauma, talk, benefits, kids, focused, classroom, love, brain, students, residential facilities, hear, teacher, seclusion, thought, child, moment, practice

SPEAKERS

Guy Stephens, Mary DeMichele

Guy Stephens  00:12

Well hello and welcome back to the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint Live Series. My name is Guy Stephens. I'm the executive director and founder here at the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint, and really happy to have you joining us today. If you're watching live, you know the drill, let us know in the chat, who you are and where you're from.  

We'd love to see who might be joining us. Of course, to give you a little bit of background, the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint is an organization we started about four and a half years ago.  We focus on of course, restraint and seclusion, but it's really far beyond that. It's, you know, restraint, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, corporal punishment. Even more broadly, it's often the things that are happening and being done to children and young people, often in the name of behavior, often in the name of compliance. Our work is really centered around trying to change laws, policies, practices, trying to focus on what are the better things we can do, can and should do, to better support ultimately, all humans, because we believe that you can do better. 

So let me tell you a little bit about our show today, and we'll get into introducing our guest here in just a moment. We're really excited to have a special guest with us today. And of course, as you know, I'm always really excited to have the special guests we have, because we have the opportunity to meet some amazing people doing incredible work; work that is, I believe, making the world a better place for all of us. And today, we're gonna be talking to Mary DeMichele, who is the author of this book I happen to be holding my hand here, which is One Rule Improv. And you're probably wondering, the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint, and improv, how are these things linked together?  But we're going to talk about that, and you'll understand here in a few minutes. But we're gonna be talking about this really unique research-based and trauma-informed method that takes improv and creates a neurobiological change that enables people to do better, whether in the classroom, in therapy, even for personal relationships and professional relationships. So this is gonna be a really exciting topic that we have here, 

I do want to take care of a couple of housekeeping items. As always, today's session is being recorded. So if you can't, if you can't be here for the entire live event, you'll be able to come back later and watch it on YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn. So we have a lot of different platforms that you can come back and watch it. And it's also available as an audio podcast. So if you'd like to listen on the go in your car, you'll be able to download it and listen to it on your favorite podcasting platform. So with all that said, if you haven't already, and I see a couple of people have, let us know who you are, and where you're joining us from in the chat. I see a couple of people have already weighed in, and I have somebody here from Bucks County, Pennsylvania and Karen, and I happen to know that you are in Oregon. So a couple of people have already joined us here, but tell us now who you are and where you're coming from. 

And let me go ahead and get to really the exciting part here. The exciting part is not me, you get to see me every couple of weeks. The exciting part is to talk to our special guest today. So I'm gonna give you a little bit of background, and Mary, it's great to have you here today. So let me just share kind of a brief, a brief background.  You are the creator of not only the book that I'm holding, but that process of one rule improv, which is a research-based and trauma-informed approach to learning, teaching and applying improv. Of course, it's used in a variety of settings, including classrooms, trauma-informed schools, residential treatment centers and homes. Teachers, clinicians and parents are really consistently amazed and grateful for the work that you're doing and the simplicity and the benefits of this approach, and how comfortable they feel participating. And that's a really important note, because, oftentimes when we're talking to people and trying to teach or train them and things and when you have participation exercises, people go “oh no, it's time that I gotta get up or I've got to do something”. So that's great to hear. And of course, you've co-authored some groundbreaking, published research on improv and the effects on the brain, which I'll admit to you… I'm a brain nerd. So I'm going to be really interested in diving into some of that. And it's been featured in the documentary Act Social using “Yes And” to save the world from within,  Psychology Today and Forbes.  And you are a certified academic and special needs instructor as well. And I imagine I could probably go on with a lot of other credentials. 

But Mary, it is really exciting to have you here today.  I became aware of your book, and I think you and I had talked, I had attended a conference, the Attachment Trauma Network Conference.  I've been attending it now for a couple of years and when I attended the year before last, there was a session on improv, and it was talking about using improv in residential facilities, and talking about improv is a trauma-informed approach. And I'll share with you that at the Alliance, one of the things that we work really hard to do is not only help to bring about change when it comes to laws and policies around a lot of the things that are being done to the young people in schools and residential facilities and other settings, but we also really try hard to educate people.  What are the better things that we can and should do?  So when I saw this work, I'm like, “Oh, this is really interesting”.  And it's really interesting for a couple of reasons, which we'll dive into in just a moment.  But at any rate, let me just finish my welcome and say, it is really a pleasure to have you here today.  I've enjoyed learning about your work, and am really excited to be able to share the work you're doing with our audience today.  So thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to join us. 

Mary DeMichele:

Thank you, Guy.  

Guy Stephens:

Absolutely.  And I'll just share with you a couple of other people have joined us here.  We tend to get people from all over the world that join in.  And I told you before we went on live, it is really just you and I having a conversation. So you can ignore these people. They're not really there. But I will say we've got somebody here from Massachusetts, a good friend and ally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Floyd.  Oh, and look at this.  Helping Linda always helps keep me honest.   I say, people from all over the world, Linda will show up and say hello from New Zealand.  I'm not going to actually say what Linda really said there because I'm sure I will butcher it.  But Linda is an amazing educator in New Zealand and it is actually already tomorrow morning in New Zealand. So Linda's probably up very early tuning in. We've got someone here from New Brunswick, Canada, Chantal, who's actually our lead volunteer at the Alliance. Leads are amazing book studies that we do. In fact, I'm just thinking here, we'll have to do a book study of of your book. We've been doing these book studies now for a couple of months. And they're really a lot of fun to get educators and parents and all sorts of people together. And we typically do four or five sessions.  And often we've been lucky enough to have authors join us, so I might hit you with that request later.  We have Sandra here, I think from North Carolina, so a number of people have jumped on board.  Michelle, from Nebraska.  But again, really excited to have you here today.  Really excited to talk about the book and talk about your work.  So thanks for being here.

Mary DeMichele  07:22

Absolutely.  That’s wonderful.

Guy Stephens  07:24

So let's dive right in. You know, when I first heard about the idea of improv and a trauma-informed approach, I scratched my head a little bit and, well when I thought of improv, I thought about some improv shows I've seen on TV and I thought,  are we talking about the same thing?  So let's set the stage a little bit.  Can you talk a little bit about what is improv?  And then we can transition into how does this relate to a trauma informed practice that can really help reshape the brain and people that have experienced trauma.  So let's start out on a real basic level.  What is improv?  How did you get involved in improv, and just kind of set the stage for audience if you would?

Mary DeMichele  08:06

Sure.  So improv is, as you're familiar with it, it is a comedic art form.  A performing art form. And the TV show Whose Line Is It Anyway? has brought it around the world.  Millions now know, are familiar with improv.  They have laughed, they've enjoyed it.  However, while that exposure has been amazing for improv, it's actually been detrimental in the sense that while people have enjoyed the outcomes, most people can't see the process so they misunderstand where those hilarious outcomes are coming from.  And when you understand the process behind improv, what they're actually doing on stage, that process is also responsible for just a myriad of benefits.  In the last couple of decades, people have realized that those benefits from the practice of improv are applicable to other disciplines: business, the clinical world, education, therapy, they're just amazing I don’t want to say…

Guy Stephens  09:28

Be bold, say what you want to say.

Mary DeMichele  09:30

Sure, we'll get into it. You're right, it's a performing art. So you have performance improv and we have discovered that there are applicable benefits from the practice of it.  So you also have this applied improv where people are learning improv to better themselves or find help in a different way.

Guy Stephens  09:51

And that's a great intro and of course, you mentioned Whose Line Is It Anyway?, and when I mentioned I think in the beginning seeing shows, that was what popped in my mind immediately and just the funny skits that you would see and the way that things would unfold.  But when you begin to kind of take that next step, you're talking about the benefits. You know, of course, the main benefit that comes to mind initially is laughter, right?   It's just that, you watch this thing, you enjoy this thing.  But, that's not even the surface of really what you're talking about when you're talking about the benefits.  So when you're talking about the benefits of improv, and again, there's a really big leap between thinking about this funny thing that you see on TV, and then thinking about an intervention that's going to help people that are suffering from depression or trauma. So let's talk just kind of about those benefits. What are some of the benefits of improv?

Mary DeMichele  10:56

Goodness, I can rattle off a whole list of benefits that is going to help with creativity and innovation and collaborativeness and communication skills and interpersonal skills.  And that's going to help with the practice of improv, and that's why it's used in many different disciplines. So there's so much.  What I discovered, and what people who when they practice improv - and we’ll play a game later - is through the practice of improv, whatever state you're in, you get to move.  Whether you're tired or aggravated, or frustrated or distracted or just done with the day, within moments, you are in a much better, positive, energized state through improv.  So what improv has the ability to do is change your mental state, get your brain online, get you into a more neurobiologically balanced state.  It balances your nervous system, okay?  So while I can talk about the many benefits you're going to get, the way I use it,, it's going to get someone into a better state to then engage.  So if we're talking about decreasing or eliminating seclusion and restraint, that's the intention.  Improv can be the tool to achieve that so you don't get into that situation.  So improv can serve staff, educators, residential environments, classroom environments as a very fast, effective tool for someone to use to help the student, the co-worker, themselves, get into a more regulated, co-regulated state, so they can function at their best physiologically, emotionally, psychologically.

Guy Stephens  13:05

Yeah, no, absolutely. And, again, it's not just, I mean the work that we do, it's not just restraint, seclusion, but it's about all the things that are often done to kids very often in the name of behavior.   Very often, it starts with non-compliance, and then things escalate.  But,  it's really such an amazing jump to think that we can go from somebody that is having a hard time, or somebody that is becoming dysregulated, to using something like improv, to not only bring them back online, but then to have a positive outcome in terms of reducing the need and the perceived need for punitive approaches.   So this is a really, I mean it's like a huge I don't want to say claim, because I know where this is all coming from, but it holds huge promise, right?  So,  to make that leap, of course,  here we talk quite a bit about trauma-informed approaches, and we talk about being neuroscience aligned.  And we have a lot of guests here talking about that work and the science behind it as well.  And what we know, and we can look at the work of people like Dr. Bruce Perry, who talks about the neurosequential model of the brain and that we need to regulate, relate, and that gives us the access to reason that, in order to be able to reason, regulation is a prerequisite.  We've got to be in that kind of thinking, rational part of our brain.  We've got to  have access to the prefrontal cortex.  And we’ve talked about that a lot here with the Alliance, we’ve talked about, how do we not only, it's not in my mind about better managing crisis situations, but it's really about how do you avoid getting to that position in the first place, and so much of it can be preventable, if you can co regulate,  if you can keep keep people in their cortex.  So this idea, and this is what really amazed me when I saw the, the presentation, but this idea that improv has the ability to help bring the prefrontal cortex back online for somebody that is shut down, becoming dysregulated, having a hard time - that's really phenomenal.  So let's talk about this.  Let's talk about someone that's having a hard time,  somebody is becoming dysregulated.  How does improv, what's the, you don't have to go deeply into the science, but I mean, what's happening there?

Mary DeMichele  15:45

So, a few months ago, I talked about the process of improv,  and improv… Look, we're human beings, right?  And I know there's people listening, going, ‘Hey, I improvise every day.’  And you do, because we're humans, okay?  Humans do improvise every single day.  We have a structure to our life, you know?  The sun's going to come up, the alarm goes off, you make your coffee, you get in your car, right?   You get to work.  Or, you get in your car, you get a flat.  Now you’ve got to improvise, because you have to move forward.  And we can do that, you know.   You're like either gonna check your insurance, call a tow service call or do it yourself.  And then you move forward, right?  We improvise.  

However, when we're stressed out, when we get stuck, when we're suffering from the effects of trauma, we get stuck, and we can't move forward. Right?  So you get into that fight and flight, the fear that we get there.  And in steps, improv, not improvisation, but improv, that comedic art form and this process.  Some people teach 7,11 different rules.  What I found was we focus on one rule, the foundational rule, and that is two words:  ‘Yes, and’.   And a lot of people I asked say, “That's simple. That's too simple. There's seven other roles.  We need to talk about them.”  And it's like, you don't need to, because if you focus on ‘Yes, and’,  all those other things fall into place, and we can handle that.  Because the elephant in the room is people are scared to death of improv, right?   They see the word and they back off, like “No way.  It might work. It’s just not me.”  But the process of improv is simply practicing acceptance, and then showing you value the other person by adding something.  So when you think about improv in those terms, it's completely accessible to people.  Whose Line is it Anyway?, people saw the funny theatrical comedic outcomes.  And as human beings, we love to put things in boxes that we don't understand.  So a lot of people put it in the box of oh, it's comedy.  It's stand-up comedy.  You have to be a comedian to do improv.   No,  stand-up comedy is about getting a laugh at anyone's expense.  Drama is about your struggle through conflict, creating conflict, overcoming conflict.  It's conflict.  But improv is about acceptance, the practice of being present, listening, accepting the situation before you.  Accepting the other person before you with whatever they have, and then adding something.  Okay, so here's your brain science. “Yes, and” is the access point to the neurobiological changes we saw in the brain, to get the brain online,  to increase the functional connectivity in the brain. It goes back to this simple practice of “Yes, and”. Okay?

Guy Stephens

Okay. 

Mary DeMichele 

All right.  So let's just do a little quick demo before we move on.  How's that?

Guy Stephens  19:07

And I'm already thinking, Oh, no, I'm gonna have to do something here. I'm gonna mess it up, Mary!

Mary DeMichele  19:12

Yeah, no! So there’s three things that just came to mind, but I probably will remember none of them in about 10 seconds.  See, I already forgot.  It's just one of those days.  So, there is no failure in improv because everything you say and do is accepted.  You don't have to worry about being wrong because I'm accepting it.  And in fact, I'm going to validate it by adding to it.  Okay? And, you'll see this is going to create such a safety, you're going to realize you're okay.  And if you don't say something, you would personally judge yourself as like, oh my god, I failed.  You're gonna realize there's no risk in that.   And the more we do this, you'll see how intrinsically motivating it is, but we can talk about that later iIf I remember.  So let's… What's something you use every day that needs to be new and improved?

Guy Stephens  20:10

Something every day that needs to be new and improved. Let's say my phone.

Mary DeMichele  20:19

Your phone.  So we'll design a new and improved phone. And so I'll say, “hey, let's design a new and improved phone”. And then you say “Yes, and” and you add one idea. And then I'll say “Yes, and” then I'll add an idea and we just go back and forth. 

Guy Stephens

Okay. 

Mary DeMichele 
Hey, let's design a new and improved phone.

Guy Stephens  20:36

Yes, and let's make sure it works in space.

Mary DeMichele  20:40

Yes, and it never loses connectivity.

Guy Stephens  20:44

Yes, and it's really cheap.

Mary DeMichele  20:49

Yes, and you can get it in any shape: flip phone or flat.

Guy Stephens  20:54

Yes, and you can have it in any color.

Mary DeMichele  20:58

Yes, and you can never lose it, because it will yell out for you.

Guy Stephens  21:04

Yes, and it has wheels and drives. 

Mary DeMichele

Yes, give ourselves a hand.

Guy Stephens

There you go. Okay, I didn't mess up, did I?

Mary DeMichele

No, and I didn’t mess up.

Guy Stephens

Actually in that, I kind of went from a little anxiety to feel like oh, this, this might be fun. Somebody wants our phone. So yes,and… we need to market it. So there you go. 

So what's happening there?

Mary DeMichele  21:26

So what happens is, and there's been so much talk about the power of positive affirmation. Within improv, if you're doing games explicitly and implicitly framed by “Yes, and”,  that “yes” creates that positive affirmation.  Hearing “yes” creates a safety for us.  We feel felt, we feel heard, we feel safe.  We feel like we belong, right?   But here's the real power. Because, yes… It's hard seeing the comments too.

Guy Stephens  21:59

Sorry. That's right.  Sorry. I just loved it. They were playing along with our “Yes,and”.

Mary DeMichele  22:04
Yay!  So the “Yes” creates that safety and security, which helps to move us to that prefrontal cortex. So it can connect now from the top down and integrate the other sections of the brain, right?  But here's the magic. “And”.  Because you and I both know.  We've been in enough conversations with, you know, relationships and children that “yes” does not mean the other person's listened to a word you're saying.  So “yes” can be very empty.  When it's real, it's powerful.  And the “and” is going to keep it real.  Because that “and” that we just did instigates just enough uncertainty to make you pay attention.  Not too much uncertainty, because I feel safe already. It's not that uncertainty like I'm gonna freeze and I'm gonna go back into that primitive brain.  It's, oh, I need to be present.  I don't know what's going to happen.  I'm attuning to you.  I'm not thinking about me.

Guy Stephens  23:07

Attuning, attuning attuning.  Yeah, I love that you bring up that word.  And of course, I think of “Yes, and” and you know, the other thing that came to my mind was “but” and what does “but” do but put you in a defensive position, right.  We had Mr. Chazz on at one point, I don’t know if you know, Mr. Chazz.

Mary DeMichele 

Yes I do

Guy Stephens

Yeah okay, we interviewed him and Mr. Chazz is talking about apologies. And he made a funny statement, so I'll just add it here. “You need to keep your buts in your pants.”   I mean, you don't apologize and have a “but”.  If you apologize and have a “but” it's no longer an apology. Right?

Mary DeMichele  23:38
Right.  We talk about that a lot. Because improv is about “Yes, and”,  and you'll hear “ yes, if”.  Oh, we could use if  which is a condition and there's no judgment in improv. And “yes, but”  is basically a denial.  It's a very patronizing way to deny.  This was an interesting…

Guy Stephens  23:58

And not feel validated, not feel heard.

Mary DeMichele  24:01

Exactly.  And this is interesting, too. “And” without the “yes”. So if you're in a conversation, and you're with someone who loves to only and, you actually can feel very invalidated with that, because they're never validating your idea. They're just one-upping it.

Guy Stephens  24:27

Yeah, no, no, I hear you. I hear you. Yeah.

Mary DeMichele  24:30

For most people, it might be a strategic thing to invalidate you. However, it's usually a speech pattern. And they don't realize that the other person's walking away with a negative feeling about the relationship and they can't identify why.  They're not going to go home and say well, that person didn't “yes, and” me, you know, they just feel invalidated.  So the words we choose and how we respond to each other are so important.  

I did a session, I think it was last year,  in a medical school training residents, I think fifth year residents, on how to apologize to their patients.  And what was beautiful about this whole session was their lawyer was there.  And she stood up and said, We get sued less when you apologize. So let's go.  And we did basically an improvisational role playing structure using “yes, and” and how they communicate.  And at the end, the medical director said, we as doctors, what do we usually say?  And they all said  “yes, but”.  And then the lawyer stood up and she said, as lawyers, we say “No”.  And the problem is, I'm married to a lawyer, so when we get home, we just say no to each other.  And it was just so powerful.  And just, it's, it's so empowering, when you're just aware, and start to listen for it.  But when you actually start to use “yes, and” in real life,  outside of improv, okay,  there's a real role for using the short form games, you start practicing just using “yes, and”.  It's not easy, because it's something we don't usually practice.  But the more you practice, the easier it gets.  

I was in a situation, I won't go into it, but I perform in a shell and we bring complete strangers together in an immersive theatrical experience.  We’re pirates.  And anyway, there was a child on board, he looked about 13, his mom was there.  And in that year’s show, the captain said, Alright, if we solve these seven riddles, we will find treasure.  And we go through the whole, we have sets built out in the woods, we have a 65 foot pirate ship, it's really cool.  We get to the end, and at this moment, the child starts to - the teenager really -  starts to have a meltdown.  And he starts to become violent.  And here the mother is now struggling to basically hold him in this crowd of people as he starts to dysregulate.  Screaming, he said, “Seven, he said seven. Now there's one more, one more, he said, seven.”  Okay, you can picture it, right?  We've seen it.  And so I rushed over and I said “Yes, and we solve them all. And if we answer this one, we'll have treasure.”  And he goes, okay.  And he walked to the front to where the captain was, and that was it.  And it's that power of - you know - that connected “yes”  then there was that “and”, and he was there.  And that was it and he moved on, he was able to go forward.  And I've all kinds of stories we might get to, but that's the power. 

Let's try another one. Just,  we'll just do another “yes, and” one really

Guy Stephens

okay. 

Mary DeMichele
Now, this one we’ll just respond to each other as “Yes, and we”.  So come up with a nonspecific place for say, a vacation. Say we work together and we had an off site conference, 

Guy Stephens

and we're going to an island, 

Mary DeMichele

Going to an island. There we go. Okay, so it's like, hey, remember that time in the island? And you're gonna respond “Yes, and we”. Okay?

Guy Stephens
Okay

Mary DeMichele
Remember the time on the island?

Guy Stephens  28:35
Yes, and we had that great campfire? 

Mary DeMichele  28:39

Yes! And we were singing along to the guitar songs.

Guy Stephens  28:42

Yes, and we ate those coconuts that fell out of the tree and hit you on the head.

Mary DeMichele  28:47

Yes, and then we all thought it was a great idea to do a night swim.

Guy Stephens  28:51

Yes. And we regretted that.

Mary DeMichele  28:54

Yes, especially when we decided to play with a shark that was circling.

Guy Stephens  28:59

Yes. And we probably should have made sure we left our swimsuits on.

Mary DeMichele  29:03

Yeah, thank you. So what the “and” does, what we discovered in the research is it instigates just enough uncertainty to make us pay attention, because one of the things we saw was something called phase lag, right?  Which is the “yes” is activating the prefrontal. So now our brain’s activating, it's connecting from the top down.  But the communication we saw was slowing down, you would think faster communication would be better.  But when the parts of the brain communicate too quickly, it's kind of like having a conversation where you start talking and then someone else jumps in and talks about something else, and then it gets back to you.  But then someone else kind of overrides, and then you're kind of talking at the same time, and it's just really inefficient and ineffective overall.  

And with populations…so this study was done with teenagers who were suffering the effects of complex developmental trauma. So trauma that occurred early in life. Their phase lag can oftentimes be very fast, and improv slowed it down because now they weren't living into that state of threat and fear.  They were living in the present, and they were focused on the other person.  Okay?  Now, this is huge, because a lot of people will talk about improv: Oh, right-  Improv -Yeah! We do improv. We do this game, we do that game. Oh!   And unless they're being framed by “yes, and” you're not going to get that effect here. I'll give you an example.  Have you been to,  have you ever done a game where everyone stands in the circle, right?  And you introduce yourself, and you say something kind of funny about yourself, right?  And everyone's like, Yeah!.  Ever seen that?  Everyone's Oh, hey, best lie.  And then they go to the next person, right?

Guy Stephens  30:59

That sounds anxiety producing, yeah.

Mary DeMichele  31:01

Exactly! But people think that’s an improv game.  And it’s improvisational, perhaps, depending on what they’re asking you to do.  But it does increase anxiety because who are you focused on?

Guy Stephens  31:15

Well you’re focused on yourself.

Mary DeMichele  31:17

Oh my god, yeah.  What am I going to say?  What am I going to do? How am I gonna say my name?

Guy Stephens  31:21

And as would be the case with me, and probably lots of others,  If I’m later down the road, I’m thinking about me the whole time until it gets to me.  I’ve heard nothing that anybody else has shared.  So if that’s not just me raise your hand.

Mary DeMichele  31:36

No.  I’ve stood in circles where I don’t get anyone’s name because I’m like what am I gonna say? Am I going to sound stupid?  Am I going to date myself? Oh my goodness.  Versus….if you’re “yes, anding” you’re sitting there completely in the present focused on the other person because you have to add to it.  And whatever you say is going to be completely accepted and it moves on and it moves forward. And it’s like you felt, you feel that anxiety in the beginning because you’re not sure what’s going to come up, but you realize you are in a safe, secure belonging, fun, empowered activity.  The key elements of what we used to focus on is intrinsic motivation

Guy Stephens

Right

Mary DeMichele

And now we have that parallel, well this is trauma-informed as an experience

Guy Stephens  32:24

Right, right.  And you mentioned intrinsic motivation earlier and I want to come back to that at some point because in many of the environments that we’re involved in in working with and supporting and helping to hopefully provide some inspiration for change.  Many of those are classroom environments where the prevailing wisdom is around rewards and consequences,   which of course are not about intrinsic motivation.  They’re really about extrinsic motivators and can in fact be really harmful for people.  What we find is that rewards and consequences probably aren’t necessary for some kids that are able to meet the expectations and the kids that can't meet the expectations they’re counterproductive for.  So tell me a little bit more about how improv relates to intrinsic motivation because that’s a really interesting point.   Because often I think we’re focused on the wrong things and we’re trying to extrinsically motivate kids.  

Mary DeMichele  33:21
Well like I just said, it hits the components of what intrinsically motivates us as human beings:  a sense of security, a sense of belonging, a sense of empowerment, a sense of autonomy,  a sense of fun.  Knowing we’re going to survive the experience.  And improv does all that.   I mean, I’ve done this in all kinds of residential settings adjudicated and residential treatment where students have many comorbidities of diagnoses from PTSD and addiction , different kinds of depression, anxiety.  They’ll also come in with self-harm and sexual and physical abuse and neglect and they’re coming into something.  They don’t know what it is,  and I deal with a lot of teens.  So teens are not like yay let’s play a game, and yet in moments it feels so good.  And to be connected and they feel that state change, and they’re at their best and whether they’re …they feel it.  It’s great.  

Guy Stephens  34:37

And they’re not in a defensive place

Mary DeMichele 

No

Guy Stephens  34:37

Which so many of our behaviors and especially when you’re talking about trauma are protective behaviors right.  You know my telling you to go whatever is a protective behavior.  And this would be putting people more at ease and getting them away from that kind of you know, which again gets down to stress responses right  it gets down to people that will be moving into fight or flight.  I mean if you’re challenging somebody that’s already in a protective stage, you’re gonna go entirely in the wrong direction.

Mary DeMichele  35:09

Right?  And that’s where the escalation happens and you lose control of the situation and now you’re in the idea of removing the student and whatever else.  But you know here they very quickly learn that they’re safe.  And what’s wild about ..we live in a culture where we’re like these kids need - what’s the term - oh,  resilience and grit.  And yet no one can sense failure.  No one can sense stress.   No one can be triggered, and I’m not using that, it’s just it’s overused in everything right now because there’s a…I’m not going to get defensive here.  There’s a use for it but now there’s…so how do we do that?  The cool part about improv, there is no failure.  But if you sense that you’re failing, you’re doing it not in privacy, not in seclusion - in front of an audience.  And yet you know you’re safe and in moments you’re jumping up to play again.  So this absolute practice of knowing, even if you think you’re failing at that moment, you’re going to come up and do it again and again because it’s ok and you’re going to survive.  And that’s a wonderful training to experience that.  

Guy Stephens  36:24

So let me try to transition you for a second in a slightly different area. So people might be listening and think oh well this is fun, this is great,  this is simple, but I’m a teacher and I’ve got 20 kids in my classroom and how on earth would I use improv in my classroom?  So could you tell, can you talk a little bit about from your experience, and I know you’ve worked in a lot of different settings, but how might somebody in general use improv in the classroom and then I might go to a more specific example as well.  But let’s just talk in general, this sounds very simple but what does it look like, what would it look like if somebody were to try to implement something like this?

Mary DeMichele  37:01

Ok.  Great question.  My background - an academic teacher, high school teacher, urban, inner city.  I get it.   We have a ton of content to do.  And you’re going blind.  You’ve got 125 up to 150 kids coming in at you a day.  I mean, no way you’re going to know they’re trauma, what they’ve just went through.  They’re walking in, and it’s go time.  It’s time on task, right?  But, if you can take that moment to switch their brain online and get them into a better neurobiological state to engage, why, you do it.  

Okay, and here’s why improv is beautiful.  Say you’re the teacher that, man, I don’t know these kids.  I am not comfortable with them moving around.  I’m not comfortable with “oh let’s stand in a circle”  Nope no, they’re going to walk in and they're going to stay in their seats and that's all I’m comfortable with right now. Great. That's fine.  Let's start here. Okay?  And you'll have the same effects.  Instead of playing a game, you take the game, like we just did.  “Yes, and”,  right?

Guy Stephens

Right. 

Mary DeMichele

Let's use it as a content review of something you did yesterday, a test review coming up, whatever. Okay?  All right.  What's one thing we remember about chapter 13 - go?  Thank you. Yes, and what's another thing? Yes, and what's another thing?  Start there.  You're “yes, anding” them, okay?  And they're going to start to feel safe, and accept it and trust.  And suddenly things are gonna start to click in their head, that they are making connections because they weren't completely not paying attention at all. Okay?  So you can start there, then have them “Yes, and” each other.  All right?  I was working with a math class one time. And there were three kids up and they were doing a review for the class on triangles. And one kid was the math whiz. And he immediately got into the angle length, the angles of an obtuse and then another one chimed in, and the third kid went, Yes, and it has three sides. And they went on and on and then the kid jumped in again. Yes, and it has three sides. And you accept it. That's okay. He repeated it, you accept it.  And then at one point, you saw the light bulb go on, and he was like, “Yes, and” and he remembered one other thing about an acute angle. And at that moment, I am not making this up, it changed him. And it changed him in improv, because we would do this weekly.  After that, he realized he could make the connections.  And he just realized all he had to do was listen,  be present and add,  and he ended up being one of the I'm not gonna say best performers at improv,  but he was so relaxed and wonderful and really enjoyed it after that. So if you're the teacher that you're not comfortable having that class stand up in a circle or play a game in front of the class, do it in your review.  And just add the two words “Yes, and”.

Guy Stephens  40:10

Fundamentally, I mean, as I listen to this, fundamentally, this is about safety and connection. This is about creating safe environments where people feel seen and heard, and really building connection between the other staff and each other in this kind of setting. And, you know, it's funny, because in talking about education, and having a child that I used to always say, my kid’s a relationship kid, and of course, I think all kids are relationship kids. Some kids, though, it's so critical that if you don't have a relationship, you're not gonna have success. And, my child was one of those children. You know, and I often kind of joke, it's like, the foundation of success for so many kids is,  our three R's are relationship relationship relationship.  So, that's really fundamentally, part of what you're doing here is not only helping to use this as a way to shift them from a neurobiological standpoint, from maybe a protective or defensive state into a, you know, again, you can't be dysregulated and be connecting with your prefrontal cortex, right?

Mary DeMichele

No.

Guy Stephens

You can't be.  And when we're putting demands on people that they're not at a point to make, you know, they're going to be able to do it.  So, you know, so as you begin to think about this, I'm like, well this makes a lot of sense.  And as odd as it may seem, you know, we often talk about relationship.  And, I think the thing that we sometimes hear, and again, you've been there so you can understand and relate, and I'd love to hear your reaction to it…but we hear the Yeah, but I don't have time to make relationships with 23 kids.

Mary DeMichele  41:51

Right.  Yeah.  Well, I mean, there's a reality to that, depending on how you define that relationship, because unfortunately, somehow, it's gotten redefined that, you know, getting respect from the student and having that relationship with the student is being their friend and knowing them intimately, and that's not a reality for a high school teacher who has these kids coming in every 40 minutes, and depending on the school schedule.  But if you can create the safety and that security in the classroom, you are creating that relationship because they are trusting you, they're trusting you in setting up that environment for them. And that's where it begins. And once you have that set, you know, the more you're interacting with the kids through your content, through perhaps an improv game or structure, that relationship is going to build because you're going to learn more and more about them so quickly.

Guy Stephens  42:46

And you have the ability then to be a co-regulator, rather than potentially a co de-escalator, right?  I mean, which sometimes happens. Because, again, I would say that, in many cases, there's too often a focus on compliance and control. And that comes at a great cost to kids that are having a hard time, that are shut down, that are in a state that they're not reachable, and you've got to be able to help them feel safe.  And co-regulation, of course, is a key to doing that, and this seems to do that.  But let me ask in kind of a general context, using that as an example, you provided I think a nice overview of how you might use this in a classroom to kind of make that sense of, and this doesn't sound like any more work to me, it just sounds like a slightly different approach. Let me ask you about something a little bit more, situationally, you know, when you really have a kid that might be not only, kind of at a low level having a hard time, but maybe he's got an escalator, maybe it's a kid that's picked up a chair.  You know, are doing things like improv, have you found that that can be successful in helping to regulate that child who at that moment is really having a hard time?

Mary DeMichele  44:03

At times? Yes. Um, there is a… here, let me show you a game really quick. There's another game-super simple.  It's a one-word-at-a-time game. A lot of people use it to tell stories.  Unless you're doing narrative structure,  I don't recommend it.  Name a term, something you would look up in the encyclopedia, like dog, or…

Guy Stephens  44:28

Biology

Mary DeMichele  44:29

Biology.  So you and I are going to create a sentence about biology.  One word at a time, okay? So we're not saying “yes, and”,  it's already implied. You're going to accept whatever word I say and you're going to add on to it to make a sentence that is as true as possible.Not silly, or crazy. So you start off you say biology,

Guy Stephens  44:54

Biology

Mary DeMichele

is 

Guy Stephens

the 

Mary DeMichele

study 

Guy Stephens

Of

Mary DeMichele

Life

Guy Stephens

Period.

Mary DeMichele  45:02

That's it. Okay. So within that I have so many directions I can go in this, but go back to your question.  So, a lot of times if I'm dealing with someone who's dysregulating, and we've already had the relationship, we played this game, they knew the game, right?  And I might look at them and go, “chairs”, you know

Guy Stephens

Are

Mary DeMichele

Are really.  And then it flips, right? Because now they have to add, and it takes them to a different part of their brain.

Guy Stephens  45:37

Right, right. And that's it. Right? That's the science here, is getting them to a different part of the brain.

Mary DeMichele  45:41

That’s the de-escalation, there's that little bit of playfulness. But you flip them like that, you know?  There's lots of things that can get the brain online, but it's not involving rock climbing, or animals, or …it's that connecting with two words so rapidly.

Guy Stephens  45:57

Right, right.  Well, you know, and it's amazing, and I mean, again, sometimes if somebody is really escalated, it can be difficult, right? But it's amazing what can happen. How quickly the brain can begin to come back online, with something fairly simple.  If we stop what we're doing, you know, one of the things that I think we talk about a lot is doing things that are opposite of what people sometimes do.  Which means if somebody is escalating, rather than closing in and getting closer and hovering over them, taking a step backwards, using a very calm regulated voice, you know, these things are important, but even something that might kind of surprise or  you can you can choose somebody, I remember Matthew Portell talking about how he had socks with pictures of his dogs, and sometimes just picking up his pants leg and showing the kid this sock with a dog picture on it would kind of bring that kid back for a moment long enough to get them moving back in the direction where they can get, can begin to get regulated and come back down. It sounds like this potentially has that same capability of helping.

Mary DeMichele  47:01

Yeah. Now, you go ahead, you had a question?

Guy Stephens  47:04

Well I was just going to kind of follow up on that.  And just ask, I guess, is a better way to put it.   So, can you talk to me a little bit about outcomes?  So you've worked with schools, you've worked with medical facilities, you've worked with residential facilities.  In bringing in one rule improv, and of course, you offer training as well, right, in this.  In doing that, if you were to come in and offer training or consulting, what kind of results have you seen? And so what I'm after is, you know, have you seen this lead to measurable results?  For instance, in fewer referrals to the office or less, fewer suspensions or punitive things happening to kids?  Have you been able to, in your work, kind of make those connections with improved outcomes? And what's that look like?

Mary DeMichele  47:59

I'd say yes. And unfortunately, though, I've seen more of when they stop doing it, and I get the phone call of “we don't know what's going on”. You know, we're having fights between people we never had fights between and I'm like, Did you stop?  Well, yeah, we didn't have time.  We haven't done it this year. And I'm like, yeah!    But no,  a lot of anecdotal unfortunately.   I think data is huge. And I wish more people would count things, because if they did count, you'd see the data points of improvement. I've had research published twice. The first one was literally counting differences. But there's a lot of just anecdotal stuff, but absolutely positive outcomes. I'd say a lot of difficulty is when they stop.  You know, because, it's funny.  Of all my years in education, I remember when I was first teaching something called cooperative learning came out.  And my school brought in a fella, and I was like everyone else. Like, oh my god, I don’t have time for this!  You want my kids to sit together in groups and all they do is tell your mama jokes all day. I mean, it was insane. And the guy's like, well, you know what, you need to buy a case of potato chips to bribe them.  I'm like, you're killing me here.  But the district said do it. And we had to prove we were incorporating cooperative learning activities three times a week, for an entire year.  And we had a total chain of command checking up on everyone to make sure and the whole district was requiring reports every semester.  And it just became my tool.  It became a go-to tool.  I'm a rock star at collaborative learning, you know, or it was cooperative learning in the early 90s.  But that's what has to happen.  And because we're human beings, you and I, we go to conferences, we get so excited about something, and the moment you get back home, it's the daily grind again. And no matter how excited you are about something you've just learned, it's got to become part of your daily practice. And unless the school, unless the facility has someone owning it to support the people, and hold them accountable to say, Hey, I know you're busy, but don't remember, this is going to be helpful to keep it going, it's not going to stick. And when it does stick, it's transformative.  

So going back to your other question about and how else to use in the classroom, there's really, if any teacher’s ever reviewing material, just use those two words, okay?  If you have a teacher that has a class that they're comfortable with going, or they can set the precedent of when they walk in that room, you take a circle, and you do basically a warm up before class starts.  And in that warm up, you could do it as a game or you can do it with content material.  I use a three game sequence that takes them right up that polyvagal ladder which gently gets rid of any aggression, then boom,  they're co-regulating with each other with “yes, and” and you got them.  Three minutes into class -  go time. Okay, you see a decrease in  latenesses and disruptions and fighting, they're engaged, grades go up.  It's amazing.

Guy Stephens  51:41

Yep. Well, you know, I love that you just brought the polyvagal theory into this as well. Because I mean, really, when we talk about, Stephen Porges kind of jumps in my head.  You want to want to make the world a better place, you start by making everybody feel safe.  And really at the foundation of what this is doing, is that safety and connection piece.  Which it seems obvious, but at the same time, it's often not because often our environments are about compliance,  control, test scores, and those other pieces are thought to be unnecessary or secondary. 

I want to get to a couple of comments that have been popping up because there have been some comments popping up here.  So let me just try to look at a couple here.  This one was from Chantelle who said, We've definitely learned that the need for the feeling of belonging is incredibly powerful. And also that if we can access the thinking brain before the meltdown, we can avoid that level of severity. I like this, but I feel like this will be easier for people who are naturally playful, like my husband, than for me.  How can we make it easier for us more serious adults?  Chantelle, you're not that serious!  Alright, so yeah, and I think a lot of people might look at this and go, yeah,  yeah, that's cute.  But how do we…and of course, for me, it's the science you talk about.  I'm like, oh yeah, look at that.  But what are your thoughts?

Mary DeMichele  53:03

I'm all about improv just being accessible.  Okay?   I am not a natural extrovert at all.  I definitely have social anxiety.  So I'm not, my entry point to improv was not like, I'm the center of attention. I'm funny.  I'm coming.  Have I performed improv professionally? Yes.  Do I do stage?  Yes.  But that's not my entry point.  I'm a teacher.  And I'm about making this accessible for other people who it's not their thing, because I felt the personal changes so powerfully.  It was like peeling layers of an onion off.   And I would say that if you're feeling serious and not playful, start with listening for “yes, and” and just observing it around you, and if it's there.  And then trying it and seeing what kind of reaction you get. 

I just had a personal - I’m not going to get into it - experience. I had a loved one in the hospital over the winter.   I really wanted to get them home.  I was beyond stressed and overwhelmed. And I found out that the woman I needed to speak to was the entire casework department and the entire social work department was one person, and they were per diem.  And that was the only way I could get my loved one released.  And when I finally got her in person for a moment, I'm looking at her and I'm like, okay, she's really stressed out.  I'm reading her, and she's stressed out, she's overwhelmed.  But I am too, right?  And she says, so you want to take your loved one home today?  And instead of saying yes, and I need the homecare set up first, in my triggered stressed out thing, even though I was consciously going to say “yes, and”  she said, so you want to take your loved one home today?  And I said no.   And before I could say I want homecare set up first.   She heard no, threw her papers - I'm not being dramatic-  in the air and said, I don't know what I'm doing anymore.  I'm done.  And walked away. 

Guy Stephens

Wow

Mary DeMichele

So the power

Guy Stephens

Wow, wow. 

Mary DeMichele

And if you're dealing with a teen, a student who's dysregulated? And they hear no, or “yes, but” versus “yes, and”... just try it.  I mean, there's no play in that.  That's just using the power of those two words.  And if you want to, I mean, I'd recommend taking, or just trying some basic improv at home, you know, some of the games.  See, here's the thing.  You have these basic games that Guy and I just did.  And they’re games, you can perform them on stage.  And then you've seen really complicated games that require all kinds of acting and characters.  As long as you're “yes anding” each other and every reciprocal turn, every back and forth, every volley, whatever you want to call it; you're gonna get all the benefits no matter how basic it is.  That's it.

Guy Stephens  56:25

Yeah.  I’m sorry, finish your thought

Mary DeMichele  56:29

no, you go ahead

Guy Stephens  56:30

I was just gonna say that, you know, I've been working on some work related to regulation, related co-regulation, thinking about ways to help people that are having a hard time, that are becoming dysregulated.  And, of course, there are some very basic things that you can do.  And then you find a lot of things that might work for younger kids, that wouldn't be something that works for older kids. And I look at this and think, Oh, this is so ideal. And, you know, I was actually looking at some of Mona Delahooke’s work recently.  And she was kind of talking about the the idea of serve and return

Mary DeMichele

Right

Guy Stephens

“Yes, and” is really serve and return

Mary DeMichele  57:14

like volley!

Guy Stephens  57:16

Right, right, right.  I mean, that's really what it is. It's serve and return. And something you can use with adults or older children, which is really great. Because, again, when you begin looking for things to help, very often they're focused on younger children.  And having, you know, when I heard that this had been used in facilities that were residential facilities where it was primarily teens. It can be a really tough demographic to sell a “game” or something like that to be able to bring it in. That, that's phenomenal.

Mary DeMichele  57:52

Yeah. So and, you know, they would come to the door, and they'd be in tears.  I had a bad call, I can't come in.  I'm going to punch a wall, or I mean, they were all over the emotional spectrum. But I get them in there. Sometimes we just bring the circle to the door, and just start, and eventually they just, they come in, it's that gentle.  And then you have them, and they're connected, and they're laughing, and they're engaged, and they're online. You know?  And when I meet parents, I'd be like it was such a, it was wonderful working with your child, and they're looking at me like incredulous. And I'm like, with improv, you flip them, and you have them at their best. It's the neural signature of flow state.  They're at their best performance level. So as a teacher, why wouldn't you want to just take a moment and flip them on?  And then start. Or we talked about just incorporating “yes, and”.  We talked about, you know, maybe just doing a quick warm up with a couple of games at the beginning, or you use it as a teaching strategy. So there's a game structure.  It's a debate one.  So the person in the middle has to agree with both sides of the debate.  They have to “yes, and”.   Now for an oppositional defiant person to be in the middle of technically a fight, and they can't take the opposite side and fight.  This was the hardest game for them.  It was hilarious.  But there they were in English, okay, doing Great Gatsby, and the person in the middle, the question was, you know, which guy should she be with?  And the student in the middle was like, yeah, she should be with this guy because lalalala.  And they're like well no.  Yes, absolutely, she should go with him because of this.  So you've incorporated your content into an improvisation and improv game structure.  You're following “yes, and”,  you're getting all the neurobiological benefits. You're getting all the social emotional, soft skill benefits, and you're covering your content. 

Guy Stephens  59:59

Right,  right. And you know, “yes, and” is the entry into all of this, right?  But as you know, as I look at your book here, there are all sorts of games.  You have expert games: Hot Seat, Flip and Flop, Because I Said So, you know, all these different things.  So, certainly as you get into the book, you get into a lot of other things that you can do.  But the idea of “yes, and” I assume, is kind of prevailing through all of this. Right?

Mary DeMichele

Yep

Guy Stephens

Okay. Okay. Well, let me get to a couple other comments here real quick. Lynda said, having some connection issues. Okay. Okay. Let's see. Two connections with neuroscience that I see are 1, resilience, building benefits of hormetic doses of predictable, tolerable stress. 2. Improv engages the task positive network (overriding the DFM) in similar but different ways then mindfulness.  So Lynda was just kind of making that connection there with the neuroscience piece.  Sandra said, In my district, there are misconceptions about what trauma is, and it tends to be associated with specific student populations. I'm trying to help my district understand that  trauma-informed practices are good for all kids and staff, regardless of trauma history, would you agree?

Mary DeMichele  1:01:15

Absolutely. I mean, let's be real.  We, as teachers, we're never going to know who has trauma.  They may never know, or be self aware of their own trauma.  You know, so this is good for all human beings, any human being.  And if it's actually effective for those with high levels of trauma, dealing with a comorbidity of diagnoses as well as someone who just is a little stressed out because they're not prepared for their algebra test, you do it.

Guy Stephens  1:01:50

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would absolutely agree with you there. And I think the other point that's really important to make… So if we look at, you know, here at the Alliance we focus on, as I've said, all the things that are often being done to kids that are punitive, that are harmful, again, very often in the name of compliance and consequences.  You know, and if we look at that data, if we look at the kids that are more likely to be restrained, secluded, suspended, expelled, subjected to corporal punishment, if we look at the kids that right now are often being pushed in that kind of school to prison pipeline, we see some overlapping characteristics. But we also, aside from trauma, one of the greatest things that we see, in restraint and seclusion:  disability, disability, then you add race, and, you know, I think the intersection between disability and trauma, one is extremely significant.  And I would say, we can certainly talk about different kinds of disabilities.  But when we look at neurodivergent children, one of the things that we often see is that it is, it can be traumatic to be neurodivergent in a neurotypical world, because the neurotypical expectations, patterns, the things that they expect, all of those things can be really traumatic for kids. And I think, again, these things that you're talking about as I think Sandra was saying, these are things that you know, as you echoed back are beneficial to all humans, right?  Doing the right thing for someone that's neurodivergent is going to be a right thing for other people as well.

Mary DeMichele  1:03:35

Absolutely. And I’ll give you a couple of quick stories.  I was doing a preteen session and the parents were in town. So we had the clinicians, the preteens, the parents, and I was doing one of the quick little warm up games when I first met this child.  She didn't stop talking 24/7.  So I'm like, okay, she needs to be in control, she's controlling her environment.  Okay, so I knew since I started the second game, she would start to try and block it and deny it and, you know, stay in control, which she couldn't do, which I knew she would have some issue with.  But you keep going.  Oftentimes, teachers immediately stop, they end it.   They make them sit down.  But no, you just keep going, it takes a moment.  This was fascinating for me, because in over two decades of doing this. I'm doing this very basic little game, and she suddenly her whole body became rigid.  She looked at her mom and her eyes welled up.  And then she looked back at the group, and she continued to play perfectly.  And for the next 20 minutes, she “yes, anded” in every game we played.  And I went to the therapist, and I said, what happened?  I'd never seen that before.  I'm like, I thought I broke her.  And she said, Mary, her hemispheres are barely connected.  We've never seen her be able to communicate like that.  Social cueing.  With improv because you're co-regulating and you're focused on the other person, it develops social cueing ability, so rapidly.  So I've worked with a lot of neurodivergent, a lot of students on the spectrum. And we do games that are very heavy in social cueing, and they will come to me and go, I hate that game. And I'm like, yeah, it's okay.  But they play it.  And literally, within a couple sessions, they are doing this game, not just social cueing with one person, but with four people simultaneously.  So we know the power of play.  And since we can access the brain with “yes, and” so rapidly, and that power of play, you can make transformative change with neurodivergent populations so rapidly.   A lot of people might think improv, that's chaotic. There's no chaos.  “Yes, and” is such a firm structure.  That early on, they discovered with populations that were in the classroom that were on the spectrum, that these students immediately, they didn't react to the change, they reacted to oh, all I have to do is agree and add something? Okay.  That structure was so strong, and so safe, they excelled.  So it's really just good for all ages, and all people.  And one other neurobiological thing we saw with the brain was it activated the sensory motor system, okay?  Getting the whole body ready to move.  And what that ended up helping them do was understanding the body language of others, and integrating themselves into their own body.  Because for people who've had physical, sexual abuse, they kind of disassociate from their own body.  And improv helped them reintegrate in their own body.  Because as you saw, there's a lot of other games.  And some of them involve moving and miming.   I do it in a very safe way without physical contact.  I'm a classroom teacher first, I want to make this easy and safe for everyone, but effective.  And you find the students who are most disassociated from their body crave those games, because they feel so safe to reintegrate.  They crave the games that require movement.  I just want to make one point.  You said “yes, and” is the entry point, it is.  But I want to just make the point of being careful, because I see this even in the improv community.  They're like, Oh, yeah, “yes, and”, then we move beyond it.  And I'm like, you don't leave it.  if you want these

Guy Stephens  1:07:39

Gotcha, right, right. Right. 

Mary DeMichele  1:07:42

Leave it.  So any game I use is built upon that.

Guy Stephens  1:07:46

Right, right. It's foundational. It's foundational.

Mary DeMichele  1:07:49

Yeah. And there's a lot of games that don't use it.  If the game is about someone getting in front of the group and having witty comebacks by themself, you're not going to have that co-regulation or all these neurobiological benefits, because they're focused on themselves being funny, versus…

Guy Stephens  1:08:06

Right, right.  Which is me in the circle waiting for my time to tell you my… Yeah, no, I hear you.  I love that you equated this with play as well. You know, there's so much good research out there that talks about play and the benefits of play.  And of course, as our schools become more focused on high stakes testing and being serious, we see less and less play.  And of course, we can look at places where you know, recess, play, other things are prioritized.  Finland comes to mind.  And there are examples of the advantages and the benefits. And of course, it's been well researched. But I love that you made that connection. 

Sandra had another comment here and said, And when we realize these practices are good for everyone, these strategies become less of a burden. That's right.  It just becomes a way of being right?  I mean, ultimately, isn't that the goal that this would become a way of being? Yeah. Because now we're accommodating everyone and not doing something special for one or two students.  Great point.  

So I want to pause for a second, we're getting to the end of our time here.  And I don't know about you, but it seemed to go pretty quickly here.  Yeah.  And I wanted to just pause and let anybody that's watching live right now in the chat know, if you have a final question or statement, feel free to put that in the chat now. We're gonna be wrapping up here in a minute. But I just wanted to give folks a chance to ask any questions they have, because I get the opportunity to ask all the questions I want.  I get all the microphone here.  So this has been really, really interesting.  I wonder while we're waiting to see if anybody has any final comments or questions, any, any other more advanced techniques you might want to share with us in the last minute or two just to give people some other ideas of the kinds of things that they might find if they were to check out your book.

Mary DeMichele  1:09:50

So as an educator, one of the things I did was I took the improv games, a lot of times it was always performance based because improv training came out of theater training. So they looked at games as being oh, beginners, and some of the beginner games are terrifying, you know, and then advanced.  And what I did, I broke it down by skill, okay?   If you're a teacher and you're comfortable at facilitating these skills, do it. So if the game required staging skills, meaning the kids are standing up, and they're moving freely, you're gonna have to kind of preempt that they're going to be turning their backs to the class, okay?  So there's certain skills you're just going to want to be aware of ahead of time.  If you choose these games, now you're getting into acting skills.  If you're good with that, go for it.  If you're not, don't play those games.  But it kind of empowers them to choose what games are going to work for them in the classroom. And no matter what games you use, you're going to get the same benefits. And as you become more comfortable and your students become more comfortable, you can add games.  But with the book, you'll know what to look for in selecting games.  And you'll know what to look for and what other skills are required in it.  And you'll pick.  You know, there's some rhyming games where some kids are not gonna want to rhyme.  But other kids, you might have rhymers, it's a way to chime in to them. But I structured it in a format that's really safe for everyone to participate.  It's not putting people on the spot to make a competitive performance.  It's usually just kind of done in teams, so if they don't have an idea, it's not obvious.  They're still part of the team.  And you're still getting the benefits because oh, here's something about improv.  The audience is involved.  The audience always makes the offer.  So they are fully engaged in every game. Okay?  And with that comes a lot of benefits.  I would take pictures sometimes.  I mean, this is a residential facility, single sex, but improv was co-ed.  So picture it, I have a bunch of coed teens in a room, they’ve never seen each other.  And people on the outside, I can only imagine what they were imagining.  The debauchery that was going on,  the chaos, playing games.  And I would take pictures, and it would show every kid in a line, in a seat, intensely watching the game, because it was their idea, and they wanted to know where the next “yes, and” went. 

It’s amazing. 

Guy Stephens 

Yeah. 

Mary DeMichele

And that laughter you mentioned at the very beginning?  It doesn't come out of funny, it comes out of the shared experience.  Because you'll find that you're laughing at stuff that's not witty, that's not funny.  It's just because you're sharing the experience.  And now there's this joy, and you're vocalizing it.  And I know that sounds cheesy, but if you try it, you'll feel it.  And it's true.

Guy Stephens  1:12:54

Yes, and that leads to connection. All right. So this has been really a lot of fun. And I've enjoyed the opportunity to talk about this. Again, I want to encourage people to, if you don't have a copy of the book, pick up a copy of the book.  You can get this on Amazon and elsewhere. And, you know, it seems to me that the way this book is put together, really is about…people often like well, what are the tools? What are the strategies? You've got the foundation, which you've talked about here, but there's a lot of different things that you can try to help you develop this in the book.

Mary DeMichele  1:13:30

Yes, absolutely. And being that people are educators, we know there's other things that go into effective facilitation, and I have a chapter in there on that.

Guy Stephens  1:13:42

Perfect, perfect.  And, of course, we've talked a lot about educators, we've talked a lot about the classroom.  You've got that experience as well.  But as Sandra brought up earlier, this isn't just about class. You can do this with your children at home, I mean, this is really, anywhere that we might have anybody that we want to connect with that is having a difficult time, that has trauma, that we want to get back in the cortex.  I mean, this is a set of strategies that can be helpful to do that really anywhere, right?

Mary DeMichele  1:14:10

Absolutely, it balances the nervous system. My child was just having a meltdown right before bedtime, and I did that one word story.  There was a stuffed animal in the room,. so I called out “Lommy”.  And he just chimed in and we told the story and he went to sleep.  But we saw that working in the residential facilities.  It balances the nervous system, and they slept.  Their best night of sleep was right after improv.  One time I saw a child within five minutes fall dead asleep, who loved improv, but it relaxed them enough and if they were that tired, how are they doing school? 

Guy Stephens

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Mary DeMichele

How are they doing therapy?

Guy Stephens  1:14:49

So I had one final question for you, and this was actually a colleague of mine who said I might not be able to watch but here's my question.  And you kind of addressed this earlier,  but I'm gonna get to it anyway.  He said:  How do you get middle school and high school teachers to make time for this, given their focus is so limited to cover their academic content?  And I think you've kind of hit on that already by talking about how you can integrate it in your content.  But any other words or words of wisdom you have about getting high school and middle school teachers that just feel so overwhelmed with content to be able to fit it in?

Mary DeMichele  1:15:20

Absolutely.  Doing the review with the “yes, and”,  build it into your classroom so you're covering content.  If you have a teacher on your team that can actually teach the game, then you can coast off them by using the game structure in your room. You don't have to, everyone doesn't need to teach.  One person on your team can teach it and the rest of you can benefit from it and go, Hey, “yes, and”, remember?  Oh, one word at a time,  boom.  Or whatever, other games.  But it's that concept of “yes, and”.  We didn't talk about it, but you can check out my website.  I first discovered the power in writing fluency and that was it was the kids who organically applied it to their writing. Where they “yes, anded” themselves and kids who stopped writing, who never wrote we're now writing tons. 

Guy Stephens  1:16:07

You did a research paper on that as well, right? 

Mary DeMichele

It was published. 

Guy Stephens

Yeah. Okay. I think I saw your research paper. That was really interesting. 

This has been fantastic, and I've really enjoyed it.  And let's try a little “yes, and” here with the audience, whoever might be here with us still an hour and 20 minutes in.  Do you have an idea for a “yes, and” we can do with the audience? 

Mary DeMichele

Oh, me? 

Guy Stephens

Yeah. Why not? 

Mary DeMichele  1:16:28

We could plan a birthday party for an animal, some kind of animal.

Guy Stephens  1:16:33

Okay, and I'll do the first “yes, and” so why don't you get me started?

Mary DeMichele  1:16:36

Oh, oh, I thought you're gonna have them pick the animal or something?

Guy Stephens  1:16:41

Oh, no, we'll go ahead and get started. And we'll have them “yes, and” after that.

Mary DeMichele  1:16:45

Okay. An iguana!

Guy Stephens  1:16:48

Okay, so we're having a birthday party for an iguana.  Yes, and there will be party hats. 

And now, go ahead. And as you say, audience now it's up to you.  Give us a “yes, and” as we're wrapping things up here, and we'll see if we get any “yes, ands”.   Maybe I should tell them if they do, well,  I could do a giveaway if somebody gives me a good “yes, and”.  I have a book, maybe a t-shirt. So there you go: “Yes, and a pool.”   Okay. Anybody else have a yes, and… there we go.  Okay, I don't have that many T shirts.  So we'll have to figure this out. That's great. Well, any final words you want to leave us with Mary?

Mary DeMichele  1:17:23

No, I just feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. My personal,  Mary de Michelle at LinkedIn, Facebook: One Rule Improv. Or just reach out through the website and email me. 

Guy Stephens

Okay, great. 

Mary DeMichele

If you have any questions, but all the research is published. So

Guy Stephens  1:17:41

and you do offer training and consulting as well? Correct.

Mary DeMichele

Yes, absolutely

Guy Stephens

So,  if somebody is interested in bringing you into a school or into a system, they can reach out to you and find out details about that as well.

Mary DeMichele

Yes. 

Guy Stephens

Fantastic.  And it continues on.  Floyd says “yes, and” let's see a piñata shaped as a fly.  Okay. So we're gonna continue to go on.  Mary, hang around for a second. I'm just gonna give one announcement and then we're going to wrap up here.  I'm just going to announce our next event.  So we've got these events every two weeks and we will be back again in two weeks with two of my favorite speech therapists and colleagues and others.  We've got Stephanie Izzi and Sarah Hamel joining us.  They're actually going to be talking about reducing seclusion and restraint in autistic students using the Collaborative and Proactive Solutions approach in nonspeaking and echolalic kids.  So that should be really interesting. So if you had thoughts about how you might incorporate a model like Collaborative and Proactive Solutions with non speaking children, I think it'll be a really interesting event. 

So that is going to do it for us here today. Mary again, thank you, I'm gonna ask you to hang around. We're gonna say goodbye, but I'm gonna ask you to hang around for a second. All of those of you that are still watching. Thank you so much, and we will see you again soon. Thanks. Great. Thanks. Okay.

Mary DeMichele  1:19:06

Thanks, Guy. Bye