Creating Safe, Secure, Trauma-informed Environments: An Interview with Dr. Sandra L. Bloom

Join us for "Creating Safe, Secure, Trauma-informed Environments: An Interview with Dr. Sandra L. Bloom."

Dr. Sandra L. Bloom is a Board-Certified psychiatrist, a Temple University School of Medicine graduate, and currently Associate Professor, Health Management and Policy at the Dornsife School of Public Health, Drexel University. For the past forty years, Dr. Bloom has done pioneering work in the field of traumatic stress studies. From 1980-2001, Dr. Bloom served as Founder and Executive Director of the Sanctuary programs, inpatient psychiatric programs for the treatment of trauma-related emotional disorders and during those years, was also President of the Alliance for Creative Development, a multidisciplinary outpatient practice group. Dr. Bloom is recognized nationally and internationally as the founder of the Sanctuary Model. Since 2012, Dr. Bloom has also served as Co-chair for the Philadelphia ACEs Task Force (http://www.philadelphiaaces.org).

In 2020 Dr. Bloom introduced a new online organizational and clinical approach called Creating PRESENCE (https://www.creatingpresence.net). Creating PRESENCE is for creating trauma-informed, trauma-responsive, and trauma-resilient organizations.

Dr. Bloom is a past President of the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies. Dr. Bloom originated and has written a series of books on trauma-informed care: Creating Sanctuary: Toward the Evolution of Sane Societies, published in 1997, with a second edition in 2013; Destroying Sanctuary: The Crisis in Human Delivery Service Systems, published by Oxford University Press in 2010 and Restoring Sanctuary: A New Operating System for Trauma-Informed Systems of Care, published by Oxford University Press in 2013. Dr. Bloom has authored and published dozens of chapters and articles as well as S.E.L.F.: a Trauma-Informed Group Psychoeducational Curriculum. All of these can be found on her website (https://sandrabloom.com).

Dr. Bloom is a founder and currently Chair, Board of Directors for the national organization, CTIPP – The Campaign for Trauma-Informed Policy and Practice (https://www.ctipp.org) - whose goal is to advocate for public policies and programs at the federal, state, local, and tribal levels that incorporate up-to-date scientific findings regarding the relationship between trauma across the lifespan and many social and health problems. CTIPP was awarded the Distinguished Service Award for 2019 from the American Psychiatric Association.

Transcript

Guy Stephens: 0:11

Well, hello and welcome. My name is Guy Stevens, I'm the founder and executive director of the Alliance Against Seclusion Restraint. You are here with me live on AASR live, our bi-weekly video podcast series that we broadcast live every two weeks, generally on Thursday at 3:30 pm Eastern Time, which of course, all over the world is a lot of different times. And we are here generally talking about topics related to really a broad spectrum of things. Well, we started out very focused on restraint and seclusion, of course, we look at restraint, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, corporal punishment, and many things that are often happening to kids and youth in school, we are focused on things like the school-to-prison pipeline. But even more broadly, what we're really looking at is all the things that are often really being done to children and youth and others in the name of behavior, and really trying to focus on what are better ways of supporting children, youth and really ourselves. So we do a lot of work around trauma informed approaches, neuroscience aligned approaches, relationship driven approaches, and collaborative approaches. And we are doing work and have a vision around creating safer schools for kids, teachers and staff. But it's even really much larger than that. You know, I really believe firmly that a lot of this work that many of us are involved in is work that is going to lead to a better world. And I know that sounds really ambitious here on a Thursday afternoon. But I really do have a lot of belief and a lot of hope. And in fact, our guest today gives me a lot of belief and a lot of hope as well. So let me tell you, I'm really excited today to have Dr. Sandra Bloom joining us for a special interview. And Dr. Bloom is known for her pioneering work in the field of traumatic stress Studies. Dr. Bloom is an innovator and someone that is led to and leading to a lot of positive change in the world. So I'll tell you more about Dr. Bloom in a moment. I do want to let you know that. As always, today's session is being recorded. Of course, it's being broadcast live on Facebook, YouTube, and LinkedIn. But they're also being recorded on those platforms. So you can go back later and watch them on any of those platforms. You can of course, also listen to an audio podcast version, we have an audio-only version that's available on YouTube, excuse me on iTunes on Spotify, any place that you might listen to audio podcasts. So with that, let's get to the really exciting part. And before I do, I just want to say that some people may have already gotten this. Oh, okay. Amy, you ask, Is this being recorded for watching later? Yes, not only is it being recorded to watch later, we encourage you to watch it later. And we also encourage you to share it. So by recording it, you can share it with other folks that might be on a journey of trauma-informed care of trying to do better. So absolutely. I do want to just ask people really quickly, before I bring on Sandy and kind of introduce her, tell us who you are, and where you're from. So in the chat, let us know who you are, where you're joining us from anything else you want to share with us as well. It's always a lot of fun to share with our guests, where people are coming from today. And it's amazing to see that we often have people from all over the world that are joining us. So with that, let's go ahead and get to the really exciting part of this. Let me go ahead and introduce Dr. Sandra Bloom. Sandy, really excited to have you here today. I'm going to kind of go through your introduction here. And of course, you've done a lot. So I've got a good introduction for you. That covers a lot of ground. But let me get through that. And we're going to get started in a moment on a really exciting conversation. So Dr. Sandra Bloom is a board-certified psychiatrist at Temple University School of Medicine graduate, and currently an Associate Professor of Health Management and Policy at the Dornsife School of Public Health Drexel University. For the past 40 years, Dr. Bloom has done pioneering work in the field of traumatic stress studies. From the 1980s to 2001. Dr. Bloom served as founder and executive director of the sanctuary programs, inpatient psychiatric programs for treatment of trauma related emotional disorders, and during those years was also the Vice President of the Alliance for creative development, a multidisciplinary outpatient practice group. Dr. Bloom is recognized nationally and internationally as the founder of the sanctuary model. And since 2012, Dr. Bloom has also served as the co-chair for the Philadelphia Aces Taskforce. In 2020. Dr. Bloom introduced a new online organizational and clinical approach called Creating Presence and we'll share the link in the chat as well. And Creating Presence is for creating trauma-informed, trauma-responsive, and trauma-resilient organizations while It's really important work. You know, we often see not to go off script here for a second. But, we often see people talking about practicing trauma-informed approaches. But you can't do that outside of a trauma, informed trauma-responsive organization, your organization has to be part of what you're doing. Dr. Bloom is a past president of the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies. Dr. Bloom originated and has written a series of books on trauma-informed care, actually, I have one one of them sitting next to me here creating sanctuary, towards the evolution of sane societies published in 1997. The second edition in 2013, Destroying Sanctuary, the Crisis in Human Delivery, Service Systems published by Oxford Press in 2010, and Restoring Sanctuary, a new operating system for trauma-informed systems of care and actually have that one sitting on my desk here with me today. And you authored and published dozens of chapters and articles, as well as we've got S E, L. F, a trauma-informed group, psycho-educational curriculum. And all of these, of course, can be found on your website, which is SandraBloom.com, which we'll share. And finally, I'll mention that you are a founder, and currently the chair of the board of directors for a national organization called CTIPP, the campaign for trauma-informed policy and practice. And we'll share that link as well. And the goal of that organizations that advocate for public policies and programs at the federal, state, and local level, and tribal levels, to incorporate up-to-date scientific findings regarding the relationship between trauma across the lifespan of many social and health problems, really important work. CTIPP was awarded the Distinguished Service Award for 2019 from the American Psychiatric Association. And we've actually had the pleasure of working with folks over at CTIPP as well, of course, you know, Jesse, Jesse Koehler, who has been a guest here on the show, and it's very sad to learn about the passing of Dan, Dan press. Not long ago, but you know, Dan and Jesse were absolutely phenomenal. And Jesse and it was very, actually, I got a chance to run into him kind of randomly in Houston, he was there for a trauma-informed Educators Conference. And I'm like, wait, it's Jesse. So like, really wishes a lifetime of work in doing things that are changing the way that people are looking at things that are making a huge difference. So it's really exciting to have you here today. You know, I think when we think about the trauma-informed space, when we think about, you know, trauma-informed care, you are, you know, you're a rock star out there, you know, somebody that it's like, oh, gosh, I get to talk to Dr. Sandra Bloom, how exciting is this? You know, just really thrilled to have you here. So anyway, thank you for joining us today. And thank you for, you know, making some time to have a conversation with me.

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 8:09

Thanks for having me, guy. I'm very excited to be here. Because I don't, I don't think real fundamental change is going to happen, unless you and the people who are listening to this really insist on on substantial change in our mental health system. So I'm very happy to be here.

Guy Stephens: 8:28

Absolutely. And you know, even beyond that, you know, I you know, I was listening to a presentation that you were given at one point, and, you know, it's in the fabric of our society, so many of the things in places, I mean, you know, I started the organization here, the Alliance, in response, to my surprise, to find out that my neurodivergent son was being physically restrained and secluded at school. And quite frankly, traumatized when, in fact, if people were aware of trauma-informed approaches if people were aware of some of the neuroscience, these things wouldn't be happening, like they were, and like, they continue to happen. So, you know, these things. You know, I think, I think about some of the things I've heard you say, I think about so many others, uh, you know, Steven Porges is kind of famous, he said, "You want to make a better world. And you start by making people feel safer." And so much of that is tied into the the work that you've been doing, but also this idea that it's not just going to change, we've got to do things, we've got to take action to make things change. And that's a lot what our group is about, but I want to hear more about, you know, kind of your journey and all of this as well. I will mention again, tell us who you are and where you're from in the chat. I do see here, a friend and ally in Michigan. Casey, who was with the Michigan advocates to end seclusion and restraint. And, you know, when you talk about, certainly people that are out there that are doing things, you know, She's one of those people that has heard the call is doing something and making change. I've got a friend here as well. Floyd Hinman, who is like, Oh, heavens, that looks like Sandy Bloom. I know, he's a huge fan of your work. So hopefully, we'll get some other folks telling us where they are from, and, you know, joining with us what they're what they're interested in. So let's go back a little bit. You know, you've been doing this work for some time now. And of course, you know, the idea of trauma, the impact of trauma. You know, it's not something that has always been around. You know, certainly we can go back to the 70s and 80s, to be getting to see some things happening there. But tell us about kind of your early, you know, what led you here, what led you to this interest in, you know, everything from the research and the publication you've done around this topic? You know, what, what was the beginning of that?

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 11:01

Well, you know, I was listening to an earlier podcast you did with my friend, Maggie Bennington Davis and Maggie told you a story about how she went as a child she, that, that she found. Seclusion and restraint, Soul killing, because she had and she attributed that in part to having fallen out of a tree. It's a little kid and hurt her elbow and needed many surgeries. And when I listened to that, I went, Oh, because I had my first surgery when I was three, like it was for my eyes. And there's a story that my mom used to say, that I used to when after I came out of the O R and woke up, they had tied down my hands. And I went, and I was screaming, though, give me my hands, give me my hands. And my doctor who I loved came up to me and very respectfully said, Sam, and I'm three. And Sandy, I will undo your hands, if you promise not to touch your bandages, I promise and, and he let go my hands. And so and I'm three. Okay, so it's about, you know, I think those early formative experiences that children have with adults, of being respected as human beings and who have feelings. So I think that's where it all started for me now that Maggie triggered that, that memory. But I started in psychiatry as a teenager, and I was a mental health tech on Temple hospitals psychiatric unit. And I, in my whole training experience as a psychiatrist, I never worked in a locked psychiatric unit in the, in the at the time, programs were open and voluntary. And there was very little seclusion or restraint. I don't I don't remember that happening much at all. I don't ever remember as a staff person being put in that position to have to try to restrain somebody. It was just not done in those days. And I think that's the the historical perspective is important for people to know something about. So that until there were until really things changed in the 1980s. Pretty much all psychiatric units, except for the state hospitals. Were open voluntary places where there was very little seclusion and restraint that was being used. Now that history goes back a long way. You really this, this issue of secluding people and then getting rid of seclusion and restraint is not new. It's been going on. It's been cycling for several 100 years. So in the 18th century, when people were being routinely locked up and abusively treated, in France, and in England, there started to be a movement to Pinel in France, and then in England. It was a bunch of Quakers. And it started with a trauma. So an 18 year old girl was put into a local asylum in New York, England, is like in the slate seven late late 18th century. And she wasn't allowed that visitors and the people in her Quaker Meeting wanted to try to see her they weren't allowed in and within A couple of weeks, she had died. And they investigated. And they saw that this place where she had been kept as asylum was, was horrible. And they said, This is never going to happen to another member of our meeting again. So there was a coffee merchant named tuk. And he, they created what became known as moral treatment. And moral treatment, the idea behind that was that people have not lost their mind, they are having a lot of trouble. And they shouldn't be restrained. And they shouldn't, it should be a social setting, that's beautiful, that's filled with nature. And there has to be routine, and there has to be structure. And there has to be people who are tolerant of eccentricity, but that who will work with them as staff, people, and pretty soon. In England, in every county, there was a site of moral treatment, and the first site of moral treatment in America was in 1817. And it was friend's Hospital in Philadelphia. And that the it wasn't okay to do any of this kind of seclusion and restraint, and that's in a hospital in a psychiatric hospital, much less a school. And then then what happened was, and the recovery rates, when you read about it were astonishing. Like 75%, of the people admitted to various hospitals recovered, never had to be readmitted. This is before there were any medications, this is before there was any kind of treatment except social care, right. And then, then what happened was because they were so successful, kept local, local counties started sending people to these hospitals, who really were not treatable. So in those days, a lot of people with tertiary syphilis, a lot of people with dementia, who really could not they were not curable. And then the cure rates, therefore went way down. And the state and the places became huge. And they ended up being our gigantic state hospitals. So that the inspired administrators who originally were into moral treatment left, and were replaced by people who had to manage these very huge bureaucracies. And that's how we ended up in post-World War Two in the 70s. with having to deinstitutionalize people. So that is really important to understan because all we've done in terms of adult mental health since closing the mental hospitals was build more prisons. So we've we just have prisons that are filled with people who have all kinds of mental illness. And then it's important that another important part of my life history for historically is that after World War Two, the it began in the United Kingdom was the development of democratic therapeutic communities. And it was a result of psychiatrists who had been on the, on the battlefield with soldiers and who saw people who had what we now call PTSD. And then it was called combat trauma. And they saw that social engagement really helped people to heal pretty quickly and recover. And so that's the origin of a lot of the group therapeutic approaches. And there was a psychiatrist named Maxwell Jones, British who really wrote extensively about how important it was for the patients to be involved in their own treatment. They had to create the environment of safety. The first democratic therapeutic community in the United States was in Oakland, California at a Naval Hospital. And at that time, when these men were being admitted all over the place for a combat trauma, there was a lot of violence. So in these programs, so the and that, and in this particular program at Oakland, there was none. And the naval officials went to find out what in the world is this guy doing is he was a psychiatrist named Harry Wilmer. What, how can it be that there's no incidents here, there, nobody being tied up and restrained, and none of that is happening. And they asked Harry about that when they went out that and he said, You know, I know it sounds really simple, but the thing is, the not the norms of the community, just do not allow the violence. That's, those were the people that taught me, right. That's what I saw as a mental health tech, and then a medical student, and then a psychiatric resident at Temple hospital, or people who knew all this who had been schooled in all this, who that's was their philosophical point of view, that if you treat people with respect, if if you really want to help them, if you treat them as people instead of, you know, that they're cuckoo, then they will respond. And if you create a community, where you have safe norms, then there will not be violence. And that's what I saw, that's what I thought was normal. And so when I created my own program, well, those were the principles that we use. So we didn't have people being violent.

Guy Stephens: 21:39

Right, so So let me just take a quick break and do one thing here real quick. And there's a lot that you've got going on my head here from that, you know, from what you've shared, and I appreciate the history that you've shared there, which is fascinating. And at the same time, oh, a little demoralizing. I mean, to know that, you know, when you look back and go, well, here was a group and, and they knew better, and they were doing better. And then to see where we are. But before I get into that, I just want to share with you, a couple of other folks have joined somebody here from Tennessee, we've got Alex here from New Jersey, Melanie from South Jersey, we've got Amy here from Massachusetts, and a friend and colleague, Gail, in Australia, where it is 5 am. So she helped make me honest here when I said we have people all over the world as the Balajii, who is in New Zealand. I've got a familiar name here, Lindsey Evans in Florida, and let you connect the dots there, and the last name is somebody else here from South Jersey. So we've got a number of people that have joined on, and Meera as well from New Zealand. So I just wanted you to kind of have a sense of, you know, where folks are joining us from today. And it's great to always see that. So you've shared a lot in that kind of setting the stage and providing some of the history. And, you know, I have this immediate response of like, you know, you're saying things I'm like, Well, of course, well, of course, it's really well, of course, it's people want to be seen and feel valued. And these things seems so inherently simple. Yet, it's not the direction that things have gone. And you mentioned, you know, you mentioned prisons, and one of our focuses here at the alliance is, is the school to prison pipeline. We know that the kids that are being restrained, secluded, suspended, expelled, subjected to corporal punishment, these are kids that are very often being pushed down that school to prison pipeline. And what we've talked about things like physical restraint, seclusion, these are often five and six year olds, you know, these aren't, you know, 18 year olds with, you know, a chip on their shoulder, these are very young children, that very early on, are being forced to comply, not having their voice heard. And many, of course, many of the children we're talking about, are individuals with disabilities. Black and brown children are more likely to have these things happen. And of course, the broader context here. And I think one that, you know, well is it's kids with a trauma history, it's kids that already have probably suffered many consequences throughout their lifetimes. Even, you know, even as early as, you know, birth I mean, you know, you think about early trauma, I think about the work of people like Dr. Perry, but Dr. Bruce Perry, and you know, those first, you know, several months and how critical they are, you know, when no one's responding to a baby or in the university, they are being responded to, you know, all of this has an impact and you can look at, you know, the kids that I talked about that are often misunderstood, you know, not only is it you know, kids with disabilities, black and brown kids, kids with a trauma history, but you can look further and you know, kids that were adopted or are in foster care. And you know, that, that connection you made there. This is really upsetting to me and Sandy, I agree with you that we, and when I say we not just the two of us, but everybody else listening and everybody that they know, we need to do something about this because, you know, you look at our prisons, prisons and jails 60% of the individuals in there have been identified with some form of disability. We are failing people when they're going from school and being treated in ways like this. And they're going to prison. So, you know, I really appreciate the historical context that you brought into that. But really, isn't it frustrating to think I mean, you came into this, and it sounds like fortunate to be brought into a time and a space and with people that saw the world in the way that now you see it, and you've helped others to see it. But we have so many people out there that they look at their role as to manage, you know, as the manage people, they're missing out on the importance of connecting and treating people like they would want their loved ones to be treated. Yeah, so anyway, I appreciate that intro. And, again, you know, this goes to why change is so important. This goes to why organizations like we mentioned in the beginning here, CTIPP, why groups like that are so critical, because we've got to change systems. You know, I mean, the, you know, you mentioned how this all ended up in, you know, again, back into the spaces. And, you know, I think about, you know, and I've often shared, you know, that you know how to have restraint seclusion up in schools, well, gee, before, you know, the early 70s kids that had disabilities weren't allowed to come to school. And when the predecessor to the IDEA , IDEA law was put into place, and kids began to get access to education, there were misguided practices that they were carried over from many of these facilities that weren't doing things, right. And now, you know, I mean, gosh, we go back to the 70s. Again, you know, we go back 50 years, and you would think that these things wouldn't still be happening, that we would have more knowledge and better ways, but we don't seem to be there yet. So let's continue on with your journey. But let's, let's think about what we can do to help get there as we do this. So tell me more about developing your approach. Of course, you know, one of the things that you're well known for is, you know, the, the presence model, can you can you talk a little bit more about kind of the approach that you began to create. And, of course, we're not just talking about restraint and seclusion, those are things that, you know, are done to people in both mental health settings, and in schools and other places. But really, what we're often talking about is, people, people that have been traumatized people that have, you know, are having a difficult time that aren't getting the supports, and are suffering, we're talking about better ways to support all human beings. So talk to me about kind of where things went from there for you.

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 28:12

Sure, um, I think what we started just because of a couple of people, really individual patients of ours on our unit, we started to recognize that, that their psychiatric problems, very diverse picture had originated in childhood with childhood adversity, and this is 1985. And so the ACEs study wasn't out yet. But it became really obvious that that that was where things started going wrong for these folks who were adults. And I think that's important for everybody to realize the the children that are being poorly handled today are going to grow up and be adults. And they're, they're going to be consequences to what's happening. So we started we had to, it was, it was shocking. And fortunately, I was in a team of people. So I didn't have to be by myself. But it was, it was startling to realize what all these people have experienced his children, particularly the enormity of sexual abuse was just shot How can this possibly be? And yet it was, and we had to re-gear everything we did. We had to rethink it. We had to basically we had to learn from our patients because they were they had the expertise about what how this had all impacted them. And the field of traumatic stress didn't even get off the ground until 1985. And that's just as we were coming into all this. So we had this inpatient unit, we had to figure out how to actually help people to recover and heal. And all my original work in Sanctuary came from that, that you had to have clear norms. You had to empower people to figure out how their what had happened to them as children had impacted them across their development. And at that around 1991, my colleague, Joe Foderaro was a social worker, Joe, we were in a team meeting, trying to figure out what all this meant for us. And he said, we you know, so we, we've stopped asking people, what's wrong with them? And now we ask what happened to them? And that's changed everything. And that's become as you know, kind of a social meme. But it was really Joe, who said it.

Guy Stephens: 31:00

there needs to be an asterix at the bottom of Bruce Perry's book.

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 31:03

Exactly. Joe Foderaro, 1991, I published it 1994. Yeah. And it changed everything for us. And we had to also, which is part of how difficult it is to really become trauma aware is that you have to deal with your own history. You can't, you can't just work with other people, you got to also deal with how what life has dealt with. And you have to realize this is a multi generational thing. This is this treatment of children, maltreatment of children has been going on for 1000s of years. It's not new. So there's nobody that isn't affected, it's just denied. So we've become, I believe, a trauma organized culture, where what I mean by that is everything or everything we do our ideologies, our belief systems, our our systems as a whole are actually organized around this half past history of multi generational trauma that has been completely denied in our explanations of why people do what they do. And that gets us to the issue of behavior. So in the 1980s, was really I started to see a marked change in my field, it became all about using medications, and behaviorism took over, we completely forgot about the mind about the unconscious about other what motivates people, and it was just focusing on behavior. And I think that's where a lot of people got really stuck. Because it's impossible, you can't change behavior without understanding the human being who's in front of you, right. And that means you have to understand their their past, and you have to, you have to have some empathy, you have to understand their emotional development, you have to understand attachment. You can't just change behavior, it doesn't work. And I think that's what a lot of people in the school systems now are up against. But what they don't understand out there, I'm old this way, I have this historical perspective, because I've lived through all this. But what they wouldn't younger people who are school teachers wouldn't know that behaviorism took over in the 1980s. I trained in a program, where all the psychodynamic people constantly fought with the behaviorists in the late 1970s, and the behaviorist won, and so it became all about figuring out how to control behavior using drought, right, or using any kind of intervention that would control behavior. And, and it doesn't work. Yeah.

Guy Stephens: 34:12

100% and it is certainly at root. You know, I mean, you know, I mean it again, historically, you know, wouldn't be great to think that we were leaps and bounds ahead of where we were in the 80s. But we're not, you know, the grasp that behaviorism has on our schools, is it just it's hard to wrap your mind around. I mean, behaviorism is the lead behavioral approach being taken in schools. And not only is it probably not an effective approach with anyone, it's leading to a lot of harm with some, you know, there are a lot of kids that are on the wrong side of rewards and punishments. And again, you know, whether it's it's some way a manipulating behavior and then that's what you said earlier. We need to connect, we need to understand the way the brain works, we need to, you know, it's not just about stimulus-response and okay, well you did a behavior, I'm going to, I'm going to do something to you here, and we're going to change that behavior. But that is the model that is so prevalent, and, you know, the, you know, for, I don't know, you know, how, you know, how much you've been tuning into some of the growing controversy. And I'd like to think that maybe in some way, groups like ours, and, and others out there might be helping to grow the controversy, around behaviorism, around approaches that are very behaviorally driven, in fact, ABA, one such approach that has gotten a tremendous amount of pushback in recent years from the Autistic community, and rightfully so, you know, I appreciate the idea of evidence based practice. But if your evidence doesn't include the perspective of the people that are involved, you miss something that's critical. So for whatever it's worth Sandy, I do think that we're seeing a growing movement, and it's still a really tiny voice. I mean, again, you know, these behavioral approaches are still prevalent in most places, but we're beginning to hear that movement. I think picking up and people are questioning, people are questioning, you know, you like you said, I mean behavior is far more than stimulus-response. Stuart Shanker, who I think really highly of often talks about behaviors biology, right? It's more than just, you know, communication is a great thing to say, yeah, it's communication. But it's more than that. It's, you know, the impact of trauma. It's the neurotransmitters in our brain, its so many more things that are happening. And when we take that very shallow view of, okay, you're not doing something that I like, so I'm either going to offer you a reward or consequence, to somehow manipulate your behavior. That's not how we really help people.

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 36:58

No, and I think the way I think about it is that I affirm when teachers or parents, or anybody in Mental Health says, well, they're just trying to get attention through their behavior. It's absolutely true. That's absolutely true. That person is trying to get the attention of the other part of their own mind. So behavior, all of the what we've learned what's really one of the things we've learned about trauma, and what makes it so critical, is that during a traumatic event, during an overwhelming event, you're left dominant hemisphere, where it which thinks and is based on words, and is linear. And gives you a sense of time, that part of our mind goes offline, and is overwhelmed. And when we're, we're still taking in information, but we're taking them in our bodies, and in our sensations and in our emotions. So by definition, trauma fragments us, internally fragments, our minds. And so people then have to, they have to get whole to heal, Humpty Dumpty has to get put back together again. Right. And the behavior that people are doing is basically it's signaling. Yep. Because that that part of the mind doesn't have words. So it can only signal through behavior. And it's signaling what it needs to say, in what it needs the other part of its mind to know, but the other part of its mind doesn't want to know, because it's about trauma. It's scary; it's painful. And so there is this conflict within the person. And then when we step in, and abuse them more, that is not going to help them to heal, right. It's backwards. And that's what makes this whole issue of trauma-informed is such a big deal is it's really a way of conveying to the whole everybody that mental illness is a result of being injured, and you can be injured at the level of your genes. You could be injured at your at neurobiologically. You can be injured in every conceivable way because we are so complex, but it's all about injury, not sickness, and that change, changes everything. It just and that's what makes the study of understanding trauma and adversity. Such a big deal and why it has to be into graded into the schools. And why the only way we're going to undo this this craziness is to is to understand what what what are they signaling? What are they trying to tell us? Listening, empathy, caring relationship, making it safe enough for people to struggle and put into words. Yeah, and the and the things that have happened in the schools, like eliminating the arts, eliminating anything that is an academic is a disaster. Because how do people heal naturally, if they don't if they're not in therapy? Because this problem is so enormous, we're not going to have enough therapy, that it is not conceivable. So we have to. So So what has to happen in the schools, which I would say, used to happen was that writing, drawing, painting, acting, all of those modalities that are often marginalized, or completely eliminated from the academic environments are actually ways that children can find to heal, and always have. I know that because we used all those modalities in treatment, we had psychodrama, art therapy, and movement therapy, we used it. It was critical, that just talking to me, that wasn't enough, that would never, I would never be enough, because that's only the one side of the brain.

Guy Stephens: 41:31

You know, what's really interesting, Sandy, is it, one of the things that I've heard, and you've heard, and we've all probably heard that are listening? Well, the kids are just so different today, you know, that the kids, and there's this projection of the problem all being on the kids yet? You know, if you look at what's changed in schools, as you mentioned, you know, the high stakes testing, the, you know, the idea that well, and, you know, I had this discussion with somebody recently, this idea that, well, schools are just there to teach them, the academics, no, schools are there to help raise human beings, right? You don't, because a five year old or six year old, is not somebody that's just there to learn academics, they're learning, learning to be a person and to work with other people and, and so many other things. But you know, I think the projection is often the, well, the kids are different, the kids have change. And yet, we've got systems. I mean, if you think about our work around systems that support mental health, we look at our prisons, and our schools, you know, these are three huge systems that could change and have so much impact. But it's not happening. In fact, we often see the opposite happening of the directions we should be heading, especially when things are difficult. You know, when we're out there trying to encourage people to look at, you know, trauma informed, you know, neuroscience aligned approaches to supporting you know, kids at school, there's someone else saying, well, these behaviors, kids need more consequences. Kids need more consequences, you know, and not realizing that No, no, that's that's not the answer here. I don't know of any kid that gets suspended. And somehow that's a positive, you know, learning experience for them. So we've got a lot, a lot of change, and has happened. I want to pause for a second, and just look at a couple of questions here. And a couple of comments. Cassie says how can we use the wisdom from this history to inform our actions today? And I'm sure you thinking about the work that you've been involved with probably have a good thought on that.

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 43:37

Sorry about my dog barking, there's probably delivery at the front door, and she's very good.

Guy Stephens: 43:43

But you know, for us, for us, it's around 330 to 430 is, you know, trying for Amazon, FedEx, whoever else.

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 43:49

I'm sure they're there. I think what's really important about the history, and why I really wanted to talk about it is that it was important for me to know who my ancestors were not my physical ancestors. But my mental ancestors. It was really important to know that that, that the ideas that I was talking about around sanctuary and now about presidents have a long backdrop, and it just made me feel more certain that we were on the right track. And I think that's what, what the why it's so important to know the history is to give us confidence to give us a surety that when we meet resistance, there's going to be resistance, because these things keep cycling, but the time is now to push this cycle in a new direction. And I think that's what history why it's so important that we understand that this is not the first time this is not all brand new. It's not a fad. It's just that we have we now know more we know more about about trauma, we know more about what what kids are going through, we know more about what parents are going through, and how hard it is to, to parent children today. We know now a lot about attachment that we didn't used to know. And yet that that the roots of that go back hundreds of years. So that's why I think it's important. Cassie, and thanks for the question.

Guy Stephens: 45:27

I've got a comment here from Gail, who's in Australia. She also says there's a big focus here and oz now that schools are only allowing children who display inappropriate behaviors, to attend school on a restricted part-time basis for a long period of time. These are the very kids that need school. And here begins the funnel to the school to prison pipeline. So sad. Of course, we see this here in the United States as well, we see. And of course, the US Department of Education has issued guidance on that, you know, but we see a lot of shortened school days Oh, they, they just can't, you know, handle being here? Well, what do we need to do when I see a kid that's being restrained, secluded, suspended, expelled, somehow excluded, you know, shortened school day, what I really see is a human whose needs we've not figured out and we aren't meeting. Right.

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 46:14

Right, exactly. I think I work with the Lakeside Global Institute. And part of what they do is a lot of training. But they also run four alternative schools. So these are those kids, then from the local counties around Philadelphia, get sent from the public system to the lakeside schools, and those are trauma-informed schools, they focus on emotional regulation, they teach kids all kinds of skills, to manage their, their own behavior, so that they can learn. And they're getting really very good results. And I think those probably, it's happening in a lot of different parts of the country. But what those, we have to understand that those alternative schools then are basically our laboratories, right, they're the laboratories with what needs to be for all kids, because we know the rate of exposure is so high. So it needs to be it needs to be in all of the schools, not not just alternative schools. So cuz that's not the long term solution. All kids need to feel safe.

Guy Stephens: 47:32

Right, right. And the things that you're going to do to help a child that has, you know, maybe more trauma or more needs is gonna help every child, you know, the idea of universal approaches and universal design, you know, really is the way to go. But, you know, you mentioned those schools. And of course, the flip side of that is that many of those specialized programs are not better, but they're worse. They're more focused on behavioral control and behaviorism. And, you know, we see a lot more, you know, give you a give you an idea, looking at data from four years ago, because it's what's in my head right now, at this moment, but Maryland, in my state, we had, I think, about 28,000, restraints and seclusions that happened across the state. Half of those came from the non-public schools, which serve a small fraction of students. So you know, you have this really high number of, you know, things happening to kids things being done to kids that came from a very small percentage, but there are I mean, my son is actually graduating from a non-public program, and it's a fantastic program, their trauma-informed their relationship base. He's done really well there. But there are many programs that aren't, you know, aren't doing it. Jennifer mentioned here omg, following the lead of the individual that they know best. Yes. 100%. You know, Gail said, love this. People have to deal with their own historical trauma to be trauma-informed. Absolutely. Let's see, you know, Amy mentioned Big Pharma greed. And so, you know, we certainly know that there have been more pushes towards medication, and medication can be a wonderful thing. It can be a helpful thing. But do you think that I mean, you know, we find sometimes kind of in this work that school personnel that who shouldn't be, are pushing kids towards medication? You know, we don't want to see that. I mean, if you're going to be talking about medication, I think it needs to be coming from appropriate sources. But do you think that that's part of the issue as well that

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 49:36

we have an enormous problem with polypharmacy of children. It's enormous. You know, with kids being diagnosed with five different diagnoses and put on six different medications. It's, it is really frightening. It's bad with adults, but it's terrible with children. I work with a program I advise a program that's an online treatment program for kids and their psych, their head psychiatrist is really dedicated. It's called Charlie Health. And they and their head psychiatrists is dedicated to trying to reduce the polypharmacy because he sees so much of it kids on drugs that are powerful, that may or may not be helping them in the least, that maybe it's sedating them a lot, slowing them down, but that's not going to get to the root of the problem. Right? So it's, it's a huge, it is a huge problem across the country.

Guy Stephens: 50:38

Yeah. And we happen to be very much in the mindset of kind of supporting and affirming neurodiversity. I mean, people have different brains brains are wired, wired differently. I don't see that as a bad thing. I see that, in fact, you know, have always seen that is something we need the world needs, the outliers, right? If the bell shaped curve, it's pretty boring at the top of the bell, sometimes, you know, we need people that look at things and see things differently. But again, you know, and there's a comment here, Sherry shared, talking about we were talking about ABA and said it was touted as a cure for autism. Aba was and still is all the rage because they can train like an animal parents are impressed by this. And, you know, again, I think the roots, there are behavioral, the roots there are, how do we change behavior, and it's about, you know, the behavior that we see. But again, you know, first of all, in kind of that vein of being neurodiversity affirming, you know, we need to move beyond kind of the idea that neurotypical expectations of behavior are always the right expectations of behavior. There are things that are done to individuals in the name of behavior, because it's not perceived as a desirable behavior. My son for many years on his IEP had something about making eye contact, you know, if you are neurodivergent, eye contact might be uncomfortable, physically, and very difficult. And I stood up at an IEP meeting one day, it was like, why is this on here, this shouldn't be on here. My son doesn't need to look at anybody to hear the five conversations that are going around him. But you know, there is a lot about compliance and control. And I think, you know, if we look at the world today, whether it be in our schools or law enforcement, these ideas behind compliance and control are part of the problem. You know, it's it's about, you know, it's that's not a trauma-informed approach, you know, overpowering somebody to do the things you want them to do.

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 52:40

No, but it has a lot to do with money. You know, that the less staffing there is, the more emphasis there is on compliance and control, because environments do become quite unsafe, when there's not enough people who are well trained, and who can supervise each other right, then, then there are more problems, and it is scarier. So I don't want to I don't think we should pretend that, you know, knowing about trauma is going to fix everything. No, there has to be more funding for social services, for mental health services for health care for education, we have to change our prior and for parenting, or daycare and for parental leave, and all of that. I mean, if we as a culture, care about raising healthy children, then we have to completely reset our priorities, including our financial priorities as a whole culture, not just as individuals. I agree. And that's a huge issue. Because it's, what you what I saw happen, in my own experience, because we had to keep moving our program. And we had to keep moving our program, because the money stream changed, and money and in all organizations is food. I believe that organizations are living beings, and they need food and food for an organization is funding. And when there's not enough funding, the organization gets starved and everybody else in it becomes a victim of starvation. So when that happens, we have to keep moving our program, and each time we had to move, we were less and less funding, less and less staff less and less space, until finally I close the program because it was like we were going to do it with no staff. You can't that makes for a really dangerous situation. So I don't I think we have to contend with the bigger system issues too. That are we as a people we have gone along with funding being vastly underplayed and reduced for all of our social services. And no wonder they're having such a hard time. No wonder people are leaving in droves. You know, why should you have to not be able to? Why should you have to work three jobs because you want to do it, do a job that helps people? But in reality, that's what's happening,

Guy Stephens: 55:26

Right. And that's a really important point, because it's easy as we talk about this, to look at the world the way it is, and to be upset and to be frustrated. And to want change. And I think that's, that's normal. And then that's probably okay, to a degree. But if we think about these areas that we're talking about here, whether it be schools, or whether it be the mental health profession, or even law enforcement, you know, we're often talking about people that are going into careers that honestly are doing so because they want to do good for the world. They want to help people. And you know, no educator becomes a teacher and thinks, oh, I want to restrain and seclude a child, they get into a situation where, you know, I think part of the problem is, we have a lot of outdated ideas and approaches that are still being still being taught in higher education. You know, I mean, quite frankly, it doesn't stop in practice, higher ed is still lagging behind probably a couple of decades on some of this information. But I think it is important to be aware and compassionate. You know, when we talk about trauma, people that are working in situations where they're understaffed, were there. And, you know, again, in kind of really thinking about this, I'm not sure that I would have had a tremendous amount of empathy, initially, when what happened to my son happened to my son. But after learning more, and learning more about all of this, I have a lot of empathy, even for the person that might be restraining somebody, there is nothing pleasant about restraining a child that, in fact, is traumatic. And of course, we know that trauma can lead to changes in the brain of the people that are doing these things and actually make them more apt to do them again in the future, because they don't feel safe. So you know, part of this is culture, part of this is education. And again, there are a lot of, I think, people that really do want to do the right thing and make a positive change. But there's no, there's no easy road to that in some cases, you know? Yeah. So I mean, it's hard. And again, I mean, it is important to, you know, how do we bring these changes about, I think about earlier, Cassie had asked the question about something. And Cassie is working on some things and her home state and really being mindful of like, how do we make sure when we're doing this that we can bring training along? You know, what do we do? It's not just enough to say, don't do these things anymore, they're wrong. But how do we help people to learn here, the better things we can and should do, that are going to not only help the individuals that we serve, but ultimately, I think are helpful to the the teachers, the staff, wherever you might be? I mean, we found and I'm sure you've seen this, as well, I was thinking earlier about Pennsylvania, and have you I'm gonna guess maybe you have are aware of Gregory Smith's work. Gregory did a lot of work in the state hospital system and reducing the use of restraints seclusion, and written a bunch about it. But you know, when you think about, you know, systems that have been successful in bringing about changes like this. It's not easy, it takes a lot of work, to shift away from approaches, even when we might know that they're not working for us. So this is stuff. So I want to follow up here with a question. And this was one from Cassie, who said, Our teachers are operating without this information. How do we give this information to educators and to others?

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 59:05

Well, good question. I, and it relates to what you were just talking about Guy too, I think. We need a lot more training. And I believe because of my own experience, it's best to do it together, not just by yourself, that to bring about a real shift in a school or any kind of program. You've got to get everybody on board, because you don't you don't know who's going to trigger a child. It might be the teacher might be the bus driver, you know you so you have to get everybody that is part of the community and then broaden that out to the larger community where we all live. Right. So that means really training right? really thinking about, well, what is training? It's really re-education? And how do we do that? And how do we do that in a cost-effective way. That's why we created Creating Presence, which is all online. So that we could do it a whole organization could get in, get on this program and do it together. But, use online ability and not have to have somebody come to them, but be able to use their online, our online resources in their programs. So I think there's going to be more and more innovation now that we're all pretty much more comfortable with the online environment, because of COVID, it may end up being the only positive thing that comes out of that is that people are more willing to do this kind of thing to learn in this way. And it's faster, and it's more efficient. So, you know, that's why we've developed it. And I'm sure lots of other people are doing similar things. So I think you got to look around and see what, what's available for and make an you have to get to the leadership. Um, that means getting to school boards, educating them first, so that they support the initiatives that are going to have to occur, it means in a school making sure that the managers and the leaders of the school are on board and are going to provide the teachers with the time that they need to actually do the training. I mean, it's a, we've been learning how challenging it is.

Guy Stephens: 1:01:48

So what kind of organizations are going through this training that you're talking about that? What kind of organizations you see moving through that

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 1:01:56

A lot of mental health resident, our pilot program was a residential program for children in Canada, actually. And we only, we're still in early days, we didn't release this until during during COVID. So health care, health care, mental health care, different kinds of social service agencies, foster care. We don't have many schools yet. But we could. It's accessible for schools, it's an educational platform. So it would be, it would be possible, but we have some very big healthcare settings that are struggling, and you know, there's an epidemic of burnout. And, you know, so So trying to get programs to take onboard new learning, when they're already burned out is it's asking a lot of people. So it's, it's, it's uphill, you have to spend time overcoming the resistance, you have to make sure you get to key leaders. And from what I've seen across the country, and in every community, there is somebody who's passionate about this, probably a lot of people that are listening to this today that are you know, you don't underestimate even if you're in, you don't think you're that powerful. You Knowledge is power. And you have knowledge that other people need. And so don't underestimate the influence that you can have, it may take time, it may have to keep bagging on a lot of closed doors for a while. But don't think that because you're not, you know, a big cheese at the top that there's nothing you can do. That's just not true.

Guy Stephens: 1:04:00

Absolutely, you know, I got into this work after the experience that I had with my son. And it was about four years ago. You know, my background was in marine biology, environmental science, I was working a job for university that I expected I would I would probably stay I had until I retired. But when this happened, I was kind of like, this is not okay, you know, we've got to do something and ultimately ended up leaving my job to focus on this work full time. And I'm a firm believer that, you know, I mean, I used to, you know, when I would talk about it, you know, just say look, I'm just the dad, you know, I mean that's it I'm just the dad had this experience, did a deep dive started learning what I could understanding what I could and you know, we can become training bankers, we can become influential if we, you know, really put out some effort and I think sometimes people are surprised with how much they really can do. It's not easy. It's not easy at all, but it's work worth doing for sure. I want to get to a quick question here from My friend and Floyd. Floyd says, We talked quite a bit about the school to prison pipeline, and not on much of the school to cubicle pipeline. Okay. I've heard you discuss the C word in other interviews. Can you talk on how to make sanctuary and spaces that are created for making the next workforce, which necessitates the prison pipeline, instead of whole beans, stepping into creating the world?

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 1:05:28

Wow, Floyd, you don't ask any easy questions.

Guy Stephens: 1:05:35

Floyd is a deep thinker and, you know, somone I know well,

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 1:05:40

Floyd which C word are you talking about? You got to tell me that first? The C word. You've heard me discuss the C word. Which C word?

Guy Stephens: 1:05:53

Alright. Well, we'll see. We'll see if Flyod tells us that I assumed as I read it, because he had mentioned cubicle in the preceding sentence that maybe that was what he meant. So hopefully he'll tell us.

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 1:06:04

He capitalized it. So I'm not sure. Okay. Yeah. So I think I think what you're referring to is, you know, how do we create workplaces that are safe, and that help people be creative? And innovative? Oh, that C word? Okay, Capitalism, that's the word. That's why I had to ask. I think, you know, I am I have, where I get hope is for the young people who are coming up. Because I think they are much more fully aware than us baby boomers were that if we don't act soon, we are going to kill all life on Earth. It's that simple. And I think they're scared. I think they're anxious. And they're not sure yet how to direct their energy. But it does, it is going to mean adjusting to a different economic system than the one we have. Because capitalism, neoliberal capitalism, is no longer working. It's killing us, it's killing us. It's killing the planet, it's killing the people we care about. It doesn't that does not mean I'm the other C word, which is a communist, I don't even know for sure what a communist is. I grew up in the 50s. So I just know that our system has to change. It's not working, and it's killing us. And it's killing the whole planet. And it's even going to kill the really rich people, because they have no place else to go. So I think we have to talk about that just like we are now and really have come meaningful conversations about well, what does that look like? And what are we each going to have to give up in order to make it change? What and we have to elect people who give a shit about this about everything that we're talking about, which we're not currently haven't been very good at. So it means changing the government, which is seems to be completely stalled. And well, at least, we didn't destroy the world economy yesterday. That's good. But there's so many things that are wrong with a country that is supposed to be in a in a leadership position, and we're losing all that. And I, I'm hoping that we will give it that this is about children, that this really our future is about raising healthy children. And that's the key,

Guy Stephens: 1:09:08

Right? You want a better future, you raise healthy children

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 1:09:11

Raise healthy kids who have not been abused, who have not been exposed to being beaten up as children, who have not been sexually abused, who are respected and loved and cared for. That's all the change that would have to happen. But that means in order to get healthy children, you have to take care of young parents, you have to make it possible for parents to do the work they need to do you have to have high quality daycare, so that a woman at work doesn't have to worry about her what's happening to her child in a daycare center. There's enough money for it to be paid for that parents can take leave when they have a new baby. I mean, there's so much wrong that other developed countries do that other countries in Europe and Australia and New Zealand do do those things. And the idea, and I'll and I'll just pause and like I have a word for it the idea. This is the only country in the world that has refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, the only country in the world is the United States of America. And that says, everything that in 1975, there were two African Americans, psychiatrists who wrote an article that was published in a psychiatric journal, and it was about child ism. And they said that our most basic form of oppression is of children. And I think that we're totally right. And I think we could, we could, in a generation, change everything and have a really nice world to live in. If we just made children the first priority.

Guy Stephens: 1:11:12

We treat them like human beings, we don't treat them as a subclass with less, you know, the deserve fewer rights or respect. You know, it's funny, because you you win. Exactly. We're I was thinking, which is about the UN Convention of the children. And, you know, so I mean, there's a lot. There's a lot that needs to change there. Let me shift gears here. As we kind of wind down. We've we've covered a lot of ground, and they're just comments all over the chat, and I certainly won't have time to get to them all. But let's, let's kind of end on a hopeful note, let me ask you, Sandy. You've done this over your career, you've done things to bring about changes. And and I'm a firm believer that any positive change is a positive change, meaning that something that it's a positive change affecting one person, that's a step in the right direction, if you can change a local law, or a state law, that's a step in the right direction, you change federal law, that's a bigger step anywhere we can make change, I think it's a really good thing. And I'd love to see that see, tip is kind of focused on all those areas as well. But let me let me ask you this, what gives you hope for the future.

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 1:12:29

Or the young, I'm still teaching full time, I'm about to reach three quarters of a century. And I'm still teaching full time. And it's not just because I need to make a living. It's also because these young people inspire me. They care. They are, they are determined to make a difference. They are activated. They, they they care that there's racism, they care that there's sexism, they care that their child ism, they're determined to do more about it. It's not that nothing, that we didn't do anything we did, but we didn't complete we didn't finish the job. All right. And, and I think they stand a chance of really making a difference and changing the big C word. And really understanding that this that, that our economic system has to change if we're going to survive, and they are desperately concerned about the environment and the ecological disasters that are coming. So I you know, and they're, and they're very concerned about the growing the growing potential for fascism, to take over this country, which is very real. It's happened before it again. So they're really scared about that. And they should be and we all should be. So I that's what gives me hope guy is that the generations that are coming up? Yep.

Guy Stephens: 1:14:05

I agree with you. And, you know, that's, and I also say that I'm so glad that you're in the classroom, you're doing what you're passionate about what you love, but but even more, you know, spreading this, these ideas and the wisdom. This has been a really great conversation. You know, we have covered a lot of ground here. And you know, I do a lot of these interviews, and this is just kind of gone into some really interesting areas. And I love you're passionate and you give me hope Sandy you give me hope. I so appreciate your taking some time to join us today. I love you'd sent me an email earlier about one of your students. It's doing some really, and I was thinking as you were talking about, you know, the young people like yeah, you know if there's anything that we can do to help support, you know, what your students are doing or get their voices out, you know, let us know we want to do that. Uh, but you know, you are definitely somebody, I think that's brought a lot of hope and positive change to the world. So thank you for all the things that you're doing to make a difference. And with that, I'm gonna thank you here in a second, and encourage others to put their things in the chat. But I want to leave you with any final thoughts. So any final thoughts you have, as we end our conversation here today?

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 1:15:26

I think I got to the big things, Guy. Thank you very much for the opportunity. And thank you and all of your, all of the people who are part of this movement, that it's just, it's so critical. And it's so critical for us to get all linked together for like minded people to come together just in this way, and make a change. And look at that.

Guy Stephens: 1:15:55

Did you see that from, use the term adult supremacy

Dr. Sandra Bloom: 1:15:58

Adult supremacy, use that you send me his name, and I'll make sure he gets credit.

Guy Stephens: 1:16:05

There you go. There you go. And of course, your website has contact information for you. We've shared that a lot of people just putting their thanks here in the chat. Again, you know, look at that our folks from Australia, New Zealand. We're here for the whole conversation, despite the fact that it's really early in the morning there. And just appreciate you joining us. Lots of thank yous coming here. So with that, we're gonna go ahead and end our broadcast here. The thank yous keep rolling in. This has been a great one, I hope that people will share this, and share with your students too. And you know, if any of them have anything to they want to share, love to hear their voices as well. I'm gonna let our audience go here and you can hang around for one second, Sandy, and we'll just wrap up here. But thank you so much to all of you that joined us. We'll see you again in two weeks. Thanks. Bye bye