An Interview with Robert and Ryan Delena about their book “Without Restraint: How Skiing Saved My Son’s Life.”

An Interview with Robert and Ryan Delena about their book “Without Restraint: How Skiing Saved My Son’s Life.”

As a child, Ryan DeLena had difficulty controlling his emotions and he was placed in therapeutic schools that relied on detrimental methods of behavior modification such as physical restraint. Nothing helped from a team of doctors to heavy medication. Then in 2010, Ryan was voluntarily committed to a mental hospital for further evaluation. His parents Rob and Mary Beth were counseled to place him in a group home. They refused. Two years earlier, after an impulsive decision to take Ryan skiing, Rob discovered a different child than the version experts were so sure about. By his second day of skiing, Ryan was executing advanced runs, and with each conquest in the winters that followed, Rob began to question the path laid for his son by the professionals paid to judge him. He later convinced Mary Beth to fight the medical and educational complexes over Ryan’s care and school placement, and together they fostered the freedom Ryan needed to pursue his dream of becoming a professional ski mountaineer.

Written in two voices, Without Restraint is a joint father-son memoir told with both pain and levity, struggle and strength, adventure and heart. It is the story of a misunderstood boy, a father’s growth, and a shared love of the outdoors that formed their unbreakable bond.

Transcript

Guy Stephens: 0:11

Well, hello and welcome. It is our usual time it is our usual day of the week. But it's not our usual week. We're actually here, usually every two weeks, and this is not generally the Thursday that we are here. But guess what we are here. And we've got a really special program in store for you today. Of course, my name is Guy Stevens, I'm the founder and executive director of the alliance against seclusion and restraint. If you're not familiar with the Alliance, we were started a bit over four years ago, really with a mission to look at a lot of things that were happening to kids, very often the name of compliance, it was restraint, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, corporal punishment, things being done to kids that were ultimately having really poor outcomes, leading kids down to school to prison pipeline, leading to, you know, a lot of trauma. And we began this organization to try to make positive change, tried to change practices, tried to change laws and policies, tried to do things to bring people together, and hopefully, do good things that are going to make a positive difference in people's lives. Whether you're a student, whether you're a teacher, whether you're a parent or staff member, ultimately, the same things that are going to make improvements for our kids in schools and other settings, also have a tremendous positive impact on others. So as always, today, I'm very excited. I know I say that every week. And we have just, I think the most amazing guests join us. And today is no exception. I've got a father and son here, Robert and Ryan Delaney joining us for a really special discussion. We're actually gonna be talking about a book that they co wrote, and a book called, and you might have seen this recently in our social media feed, a book called without restraint, how Skeen saved my son's life. So where are we talking about their story and their experiences, and things that had to do with restraint, seclusion, and ultimately, what turned out to be a really positive outcome for Ryan out of a very negative experience. So we're going to be really honored to get to hear and share their story today, I do want to let you know, as always, these sessions are recorded. So if you're not able to watch the whole thing live, you can come back and watch it later on YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, and we also make it available as an audio podcast. As always, we'll be taking questions, you can put questions that you have in anytime. But even beyond the questions, what I'd like to know is, who you are and where you're from. And I know we have a lot of people that join us, almost every show that we do, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you being kind of loyal fans and followers of what we're doing here. Loyal members of the community, I really appreciate that. But please tell us who you are and where you're from, as I'll always share with our guests, you know, we get people from all over the world. And it's really a privilege and honor to get you spending some time with us here. So with all of that I see some people already beginning to introduce themselves. Let me begin by introducing to you our very special guests today. And I'm going to tell you a little bit about both of them. And then we will begin with an interview here. So let me begin and at some point here, my my correct screen disappeared on me here but let me begin with our introductions. So I'm going to begin by introducing you to Robert. Robert is the father of Ryan and Robert was raised in Revere, Massachusetts and a graduate of the governor's Academy, Trinity College and Northeastern University of Law. After practicing law, and happily he founded a small recruiting company called legal staffing solutions, and for over 20 years has advised law firms lawyers, law students on legal hiring. Rob lives in Sudbury, Maine, with his wife, Mary Beth and his daughter Abigail, who currently attends Hamilton College. He spends his time skiing with his son Ryan, and the great friends that he has made during his journey from beginner to reluctant adventurer. Rob has skied all over the United States internationally in Canada, Chile and Argentina, and even survived a backcountry expedition to Antarctica. Wow. And he is planning to return to Antarctica with Ryan in late 2022. So this actually happened before that, but you'll have to give us an update on that. And of course, we'll we'll meet Ryan here as well. Ryan is currently a junior at North northern Vermont University studying outdoor education. He's widely known in the outdoor community through his social media presence as extreme Ryan. He was pictured on the cover of backcountry ski maps in 2020 and has conquered many of the world's signature ski runs including superior sea Coulier in Chile. Hello, there. Thank you. Little coolair in Montana, and Tuckerman Ravine in New Hampshire. Ryan has climbed and skied Additional peaks in Oregon, Washington, Utah, California, Nevada, Wyoming and Antarctica. And I bet you we have people from a number of those places, probably not Antarctica. And he is an enthusiastic rock climber, Ice Climber, an avid hiker. Somebody in the Grand Tetons twice and has recently completed the 100 highest peaks in New England. Ryan's earned advanced certifications from the American mountain guides Association, and professional ski instructors of America. And of course, spends every available moment in the White Mountains and plans on adventuring to and you can pronounce this for me, where is this in Peru, and in America in 2022? So, Ryan, and Robert, first of all, it is fantastic to have you both here today. And really excited to have you joining us for this conversation. You know, I do want to start by saying that, you know, you're here, of course, in part to talk about, you know, your, your book that we've talked about. But what connects, you know, both of you to the work that we're doing at the alliance against seclusion restraint, unfortunately, is, is some experiences with restraint. And, you know, in schools, and I want to just begin by saying to you, Ryan, that, you know, I'm really sorry that what was done to you was done to you, and that you had the experiences that you had, you know, my my son also was in a situation where he was being physically restrained and secluded. And we have a community here of people that really are working to try to make a positive difference so that these things that were done to you don't happen and aren't done to others. So I just want you to know that one, I really appreciate you and having the courage and the strength to write a book like this with your father and to share your experiences. You know, often when we go through really bad experiences, we want to put that trauma behind us, but in what you're doing here, I just want you to know, and I think you probably do, you're gonna be helping other people, you're gonna be helping other people that have had experiences like you've had. So I'm sorry that what happened to you and what was done to you was done to you, but I'm so appreciative that you have the the courage her to come and join us, Orion Welcome, and thank you for joining us today.

Robert DeLena: 7:22

Thanks for having me. I mean, that's, um, that's what the book is all about, it's why we did it. A lot of people don't really know that this is an issue that's going on you when you bring it up, people are generally surprised that it's going on, and it's affected a lot of people. So we're hoping to raise awareness to do the same thing you guys are doing, which is to stop it, and implement better systems for these kids in schools.

Guy Stephens: 7:47

Absolutely. I appreciate that. And, and Robert, you know, as a as a father myself on this journey, you know, the first time we connected and chatted, I really connected with you, because I could connect with you, you know, as a dad, as a dad that, you know, really, you know, has always wanted the best for your children. And, you know, for Ryan, and, you know, appreciate the work that you've been doing, not only to, you know, support, you know, support Ryan and his journey and knowing, and being a big believer and whatnot. But it's hard, it's hard. You know, this is hard as well, for a parent that's going through a lot of these things. And as I was reading the book, and I'll tell you, I have not finished completely yet, although I'm working on it. But as I was reading the book, and kind of some of the early chapters, I can very much relate to your story as a parent, and the positions that we're in where we're told things that are difficult to hear, we're told things about our children that are difficult to hear. We're given advice, that seems like great advice, that turns out to be really bad advice. So at any rate, I'm really happy, Robert, to have you here today. And you know, the fact that you both collaborated on this book and are both here, in the name of let's let's change some things just means the world to I think so many people.

Robert DeLena: 9:08

Thank you so much. It's, you know, I think for Ryan and I, we both had this, we had to come to grips with exposing ourselves in so you know, in part of this, for me as a parent, I mean, not only did I send Ryan to a school that restrained him, sent him to three schools that restrained him. We restrained him at home, and we were trained on how to restrain him at home and were advised that this was going to fix them. And so, you know, we did that for a few years before it just became evident how ridiculous it was and that it was doing the opposite of what it was intended. intended. You know, but Ryan also had to expose himself. I mean, you know, for a lot of his journey, he was at therapeutic schools and no one that no one in the town knew where he was or they just knew he wasn't in the public system. And you know, when he finally made it back to public high school, his junior year, you know, he had a he had a chance to just sort of wash it all away and forget about it and go to college and tell people is on Aurion never admit to what what went on. And instead he took this on. And I think, you know, that shows incredible courage and strength and determination to try to help other people unselfishness to is, you know, it's it's a really special thing.

Guy Stephens: 10:13

Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, I think that by by doing that by sharing by, you know, sharing your story. I'm a big believer in our stories. And I think that our stories have the ability to help other people that may be in a in a similar pattern, but are in a different place than we are. And you know, when we can do something, you know, I look back as a parent and look back and think, Well, gee, I wish I'd known then what I know now, or I wish I could have done something differently. And I know you, you probably feel that way as well. But if we can help others that are out there. And you know, Ryan, again, your, you know, your courage and speaking up and sharing your story is so critical. Things don't change, if no one knows. And, you know, this is one of those issues that the first time it happened to my son, I would never even imagined that kids were being, especially kids that my son, my son, as an older version had a disability would not have imagined that kids were being physically restrained and secluded in schools just seems unconscionable. But before we get in the interview, I just want to say give a couple hellos here real quick. I often tell people that you know we really have an international audience. And then I hope that people will prove me right in the audience. And right away we have somebody from Australia here, and depending on what part of Australia they're in, is definitely tomorrow and Australia. People that are in kind of Melbourne Sydney area, think it's probably around 740 In the morning there. So they are they are a day ahead of us. It is Friday, right now in Australia. We have somebody here from Washington State joining us. We've got somebody from Illinois, Rochester, New York, Vermont. And in fact, another another person from Irvine here, who is actually going to be a guest with us in about a week or so, an educator who has been working hard to eliminate restraint and seclusion. Somebody here from the UK as well. And Chantel who's one of our volunteers in Canada. So look at this, you know, it's like your real life around you're all over the world here. You're in Canada, Washington, Vermont, you know, all the places you go. Chantelle, who's one of our volunteers says My heart goes out to you, Ryan, for all that you endured and working to help all of our children. And oh, it looks like a Queensland, Queensland, Australia, it's

6: 12:25

40am on Friday. So we have That's right. Well, you know, I mean, how's it feel to have people get up on the other side of the world early to, to hear your story? You know, I think it's fantastic.

Ryan DeLena: 12:39

Yeah, that's pretty wild. Wow. I mean, that's, I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting a lot of local people. So it's cool that it's across the board. But also nice to see some Vermont people in there curious where in Vermont people are right now. I'm in Linden right now. Linden state, currently, and Vu soon to be BGSU. Who knows what after that,

Guy Stephens: 13:04

but it's awesome. Well, we know what's interesting. In Vermont, I mentioned one of the people that weighed in Brian dolmar. A he's an educator in Vermont, who has been working really hard to raise awareness about the use of prone restraint and seclusion in Vermont. And through his advocacy work. And then he said he's in Duxbury. He's a skier as well.

Robert DeLena: 13:27

Cool. And he bought a book. Thank you, Brian. Yep. And

Guy Stephens: 13:31

he's actually been working really hard to get changes made in his own school district. He started out probably about a year ago advocating for change at the Board of Education. He sent me an email earlier today that there's a bill now in Vermont, around eliminating print. And it's hard to believe primary strain is allowed in Vermont schools with five and six year olds. Right. Wow, it's still it's banned. And I think, Gosh, just probably about 33 states that no longer allow for on restraint. But Vermont is actually one that allows it and they also allow seclusion, but there is a bill that's been introduced to, to have an effect there. And who knows why. And maybe Maybe there's even opportunity, if you have an interest, then you go into the house and testifying on legislation around this. Having the voice of somebody like you that's been through this can can really make a difference. But anyway, I don't want to put any pressure on you. Somebody else says that they are in. So now Vermont. We're headed there next week still. Yeah, so so definitely have a couple of hours. And if you haven't told us where you are and who you are and where you're from, please do and we'll share with Ryan and Robert kind of where you are. But let's dive into your story here. So we connected recently because you shared with me the book that you have Co Co written together. The book is titled without restraint, how Skiing saved my son's life. And of course when I first read that title,

Robert DeLena: 15:49

you know, an issue that you became very concerned about? Yeah, so I was the tough kid. He was our first kid. He was born in 2001. And you know, from the outset, honestly, we thought he was gifted. We were told he was gifted when he was about two, because he talked so much. And he he was, you know, so he moved around, he just wanted to know what adults were doing. He asked questions, and he just did things that normal two year olds don't do. But he was he was hard to manage. He was volatile if things didn't go his way. He was emotional. And in he was very stubborn and willful. And he also seemed to love to be defiant, not just was defiant. He didn't seem to enjoy it. So at home, we were able to manage them. You know, I worked from home and I had fun with it. Honestly, if he was a great kid to be around, I'd look at these kids at the park who would just sit there like adults. And here's Ryan climbing on the top of the swing set, and I was got a kick out of it. Unfortunately, when he went to school, it became difficult we, we had he was accepted into a sort of a fancy pants preschool and he were set to send them there. They had a summer program before the fall began. He went to the summer program for one day, and they asked us if we could meet with the school the next day and have a pediatric neuropsychologist, observe them. And you know, you know, we sort of knew he was different. So we thought maybe that would tell us something. And so anyway, the neuropsychologist observed in the next day, watched him play for a couple hours in the preschool room. And then she sat us down and said, she didn't have a formal diagnosis. But she just took a circle and drew an oval. And she drew a line down and she said, Ryan is extremely smart in the left half of his brain, and he's extremely weak and the right app, and it means that my wife and I are type a people. We were both attorneys. We're pretty organized, regimented, you know, diligent people, we're not artsy, we're not creative. So you know, we heard that and said, Okay, we just basically made a kid that's us on steroids, right? He's, he's, he's the super version of us. And now what do we do? And so she tested him, she did some educational testing. And, and I remember that we did that meeting in her office, her flipping through the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual trying to find a diagnosis. And she would flip to a page, shake her head, flip to another page, nod her head. And then finally she said, you know, pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified. Now, you guys, you know what I'd say that to regular folks. They're like, what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything. But you guys know that it doesn't mean anything. So here, we had this diagnosis that didn't tell us much. But now we could get services from the town. So we then he left the private preschool, went to the town integrated preschool that went okay for about a year. But he was he was, he was the toughest kid there he was, he was defiant there. And they had a hard time with them. But they didn't really, you know, it wasn't awful, unfortunately, wasn't old enough for kindergarten. Now fast forward a little bit, they then wanted him to repeat that program. So he went back to the same exact program the next year. Now, Ryan is a very linear learner, very linear kid, he was four at this point. And we never told him that he was repeating the program. So in his mind, all with all of the progress that have been made the previous year, he showed up in fall, and it all went back to the ground zero again, without any explanation. So that's the second fall he really unraveled, I No, no, no, no. Why? Because we never told him what was going on. And so that that point, they They pushed us on a private placement therapeutic school, the school that they suggested, I won't say the name, but was nearby, it was in the suburbs. And in their materials, it was described as a holding environment that was in the second line of their website, you know, blah, blah, blah, name a holding environment. And it was presented to us that when kids get dysregulated, they would hug them and hold them and, you know, nurture them back to, you know, to a place where they were able to rejoin the class seem plausible. They trained us in it with that we had an older nanny that was working at Riot we brought in a new nanny who was ABA trained. She had been trained in restraints that the school trained her and how they wanted her to do it. So now all of a sudden, anytime he got dysregulated somebody was holding him. Now, you know, you guys know where this turns out. It was more than just a hold. going are you want

Guy Stephens: 19:55

yeah, no, in fact, I was gonna ask Ryan a question on that because There was a quote, I think a dog eared the page. But you know, Ryan, you shared kind of your feeling on, you know, calling calling these holds hugs. And I don't remember the exact quote, but you said something that like, it's like, calling a teddy bear or, you know, a grizzly bear teddy bear or something like that, that you know what?

Unknown: 20:18

That quote, yeah, because it just, it wasn't like that they were really violent and

Ryan DeLena: 20:24

oftentimes unjustified. And when you tried to fight back, a lot of these teachers, you could tell they wanted to win that fight, you know, they, they were using pretty excessive force, if you were resisting at all, and they didn't generally stop until you were out of energy to do anything. And how old were you at that time? Five, to the so you're five years old, when adults felt that it was necessary to hold you down? If you were having a difficult time? Yeah, yeah, yep. I mean, you know, again, you know, we often hear these things like a therapeutic hold or a hug. And really, we're talking about a physical restraint. And, you know, we've heard people from all over, you know, different backgrounds that say, Well, you know, when you do restraint, say, you know, restraint safe, you know, when you do it, right, it's safe, and, and I always disagree, because the moment you go hands on with anybody, whether it's a kid or an adult, the moment you put hands on to try to control somebody, they're going to become dysregulated, they weren't weren't already dysregulated, they're going to be very dysregulated at that point. And people often go into a fight or flight stage, right? It's, it's not even you thinking about, you're not thinking I want to be defiant, your body is like, I've got to keep myself safe. And that was the thing is that these were happening, that I was so young, that I didn't have the words to describe what was happening to me. And it was really frustrating for me and scarring, because I would always try and describe them as like, I don't know, I didn't want to like people would be like, you know, saying like, Oh, why are you trying to hurt this person they're trying to help you like, I don't know, I just kind of blacked out. And you know, I carry it around so much guilt. Because what I didn't understand was it was triggering my fight or flight response. Of course, I didn't remember what happened or why I did what I did. I just like snapped into this mode, where I felt like I needed to defend myself. And then when I came down from everything, and the restraint stopped, and I was sitting thinking about it, I couldn't explain what it happened. Right, right. And funny part is, as the parent, I would say, the exact same thing we were doing at home, you know, what started as he did something wrong, he wouldn't sit in timeout, or whatever it was. That hour and a half later, after we'd wrestled on the floor for some period of time. I didn't even remember what why how did we start this? What and what how is this gonna help them the next time, it's, it's gonna help them make better decisions if he can't remember, and I can't remember why we we gotten this wrestling match, right. And that's one of the reasons these things are so not only dangerous, but an effective is that, you know, for both the adult and the child, when the child becomes escalated, and they go into a fight or flight mode. You know, I mean, Ryan, you talk about, like, you know, kind of blacking out, but, you know, our prefrontal cortex, which is kind of our thinking decision making part of our brain. When we go into a fight or flight response mode, that part of the brain goes offline, you weren't thinking about anything at that point, other than your body's survival instincts, right. And unfortunately, you know, is, as you might have been escalated, and your arms are flailing, you're kicking, you're trying to get free, you're not doing that thoughtfully, that's your brain saying, protect me. And what happens is the adults and Robert you can probably relate to this, the adults go into a fight or flight response mode as well. And when you have, you know, a five year old and a full grown adult, or more than one full grown adult, the danger of those situations is so immense. And you know, you know, Ryan,

Guy Stephens: 23:53

when this last happened to my son, he was 13 years old. First happened when he was six years old. Last time he was 13. At the same time, it happened in the fall of 2018, that my son was last physically restrained. There was a young man in California named Max Benson and Max Benson was at a specialized school, he was put into a primary strain and he was killed in a prone restraint. I think about that so often and about what could have happened to my son and I think about you know, Ryan, what what could have happened to you? It is such a bad idea and strategy yet, you know, when you have people coming to you and say, Well, this is what we do, this is how we handle things that are the professionals. You know, we we tend to put defer to people that are in positions of authority or power, and as a result we okay well, maybe it doesn't rub right with me, but it must be the thing to do.

Robert DeLena: 24:45

I think for context, one incredible story and O'Brien tell it is when when we decided to put him in the private school, the therapeutic school, the first one, that one of the administrators from therapeutic school came to visit Ryan at the public preschool and visit for a day And I didn't learn, we knew she came. But I didn't hear the story until he wrote the book. So I want you to tell the first time that you were introduced to school number one, when you were at the public school. Yeah, when

Unknown: 25:09

I was in public, I mean, and I'll elaborate on a broader issue of the system here is that they knew I was having this issue where I didn't want to sit still, I didn't want to learn, and they were making really big decisions about my life. And, you know, moving me out of public school where they were going to put me, but they didn't treat it as though it was that serious with me. So essentially, whenever I didn't want to sit and do something, I would just stand up, and a teacher aide would stand up with me, and we would just walk through the halls and talk. So that was my impression. You know, at four and a half years old, I thought life was beach. And so this is, I'm trying to like, think of the words for the school that made for school number one, the administrator came through. And she was basically explaining to me, Oh, this is your new school, this is where you're gonna go. And everything went fine till about recess. And I was playing with these foam dice in the gym of our school. And she was like, Okay, it's time to put them away now. And I'm like, I don't want to put the dice away. And she tried to pull out of my hand, and then I resisted, getting the dice pulled out of my hand. And she restrained me on the floor of the school. And it was like, completely unexplained. It was so sudden, it was like the exact opposite of every other response to an issue I'd had at school at that point. And I was freaked out. And I started screaming, and then she covered my mouth, so I wouldn't disrupt other people. And I've just tried to fight her off until eventually, I was too tired and too weak. And then she let me come up. And I could see, the aide who worked at the public school was just kind of standing there. So I knew this wasn't an attack, I knew this was in response to what I did. And I kind of had that feeling of like this next school, school. Number one, it's not going to be good. This is what happened school. Number one, I'm really in for it.

Robert DeLena: 27:22

And he was four, I mean, maybe five, but was pretty young.

Guy Stephens: 27:27

Right? Right. Right. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, one of the the issues here, and something I hope changes at some point is that, you know, these techniques that are used? Well, let me say this, there are far better things we can and should be doing to help kids, right, physically restraining a kid or putting a kid in isolation, just don't make any sense. And very often, you know, as this story illustrates, you know, it wasn't your behavior that led to this, it was the behavior of the adults, you know, you're four years old, with, you know, a just very, you know, a very young brain, you know, your brain development, that point is not what the adult brain development is. You know, it's about the adults and the adults decisions. And, you know, school should be a place where every kid feels safe, and to be at a place where you should be able to feel safe. The impact that that must have had on you every day. I mean, you know, I remember and I think that you, Robert, a chair that you didn't run into a lot of school resistance, but I know a lot of kids that do. And on my own son, in fact, you know, if you have a kid that's like, I don't want to go to school. Be aware there could be it'd be a big problem there. But yeah, I mean, this, it's heartbreaking to think that a four year old would have been physically restrained or something like that. And, you know, the fact that we don't have any federal law around the use of restraint, seclusion in schools, blows my mind. I think it should, absolutely, there should be federal law. You know, we have state laws, but they're not very strong, and they're not well enforced. And, you know, the federal guidance that's out there says, you know, you should not use a physical restraint or put a kid in isolation unless it is a situation that involves a life threatening situation. You know, the terminology is imminent, serious physical harm. And the federal guidance says you don't restrained or secluded unless the kids in a situation where if you were not to take action, it could result in the death of someone and someone refusing to give you a pair of dice is not a life threatening situation. You should never put anybody into a physical hold over something like that. But I mean, clearly, that's, that's what they were doing. And

Unknown: 29:41

I think the issue with that in a lot of places is, you know, the analogy I use is the legal speed. Different states have different rules, but let's say 90 miles per hour, there's probably no state that'll let you drive that fast. If every single time you sped, you got pulled over. work, there probably wouldn't be a lot of speeding. But the reality is most people probably do it 99% of the time on their way to and from work and never get caught. And the one time they do they get the ticket. It's a lot like that in the schools, there's all of these guidelines and things with the state or federally that they need to follow. But it's not like their supervisors watching at all times. At that first school, it seems like all of the staff were kind of in on it, it was a really small school that had a really tight knit collection of staff. The principal himself was one of the people that was restraining me. So it just got totally out of hand. You know, at one point, I knocked over a snowman on the playground. And they literally said, when we go inside, we're going to have a very long hold, and they peacefully walked me down the hill. It's like a 10 minute walk, and I calmly walked inside. And then I was on the floor for 10 minutes. Like things like that go wrong, and people just don't know about it.

Robert DeLena: 31:02

And the hard part is he was so young, he couldn't really describe it. And remember, we picked this place, because we were told smaller class sizes, you know, they'll help with transitions. It's a more individualized education plan. You know, the whole part was was just kind of like this extra thing. All right, if something really bad happens, and he gets out of control, someone's gonna come in and hug them and, and heal until he's okay. And so we didn't fixate on it, you know, at the time. And again, I mean, I take we blow it, trust me in the book. I mean, I fall on the sword. I mean, it was we should have been paying more attention and listening to him. But he would come home, he was a trooper, he'd get on the bus every day never complained, he come home. And, you know, he might describe we would get this written, like a journal entry basically from the teacher. And it would they would use all the right terms, you know, what he would be held, it was, you know, he was out of control. Or he was, you know, he was in a situation where he was dangerous, and we had to restrain him. They wouldn't tell you how long it went on for what it looked like, you know, and then we would ask Ryan about it. And then Ryan would describe it. You know, they tried to kill me, they tried to cover my mouth. You know, I just assumed he was exaggerating. The only reason I knew he wasn't exaggerating, because we were doing them occasionally at home, and we would do them at home. I knew what I felt like when I was on top of him and what I wanted, he was stuck in his head like this. Oh, boy, do I gotta put his head they're gonna hold his head. And I'm like, why am I doing this for I don't even know why I'm doing this to begin with. So I can imagine for the teachers. You know, it's the stereotype a little I think just watching the teachers at school. The men are the worst. I think the the female teacher somehow can keep their cool I think in sometimes it's and they were a little better at and I can speak to this more than I can the couple of male teachers out of school. They just they wanted to win that wrestling match. And they were way worse and in in us and physically imposing you know, and then that's where I, you know, how many times you think you're restrained in that press school? Right? I'd say hundreds 1000s I mean, even Yeah,

Unknown: 32:58

it probably once or twice every day for four years.

Guy Stephens: 33:02

Oh, gosh, it's insane. Yeah. Well, I remember something. And I don't remember if it was Ryan, or Robert, if Bucha shared it. But about an administrator that talked about like, restraining five kids at a time or something like that. I mean, just Yeah, yeah. He bragged

Unknown: 33:16

about it. He, we had a once a week thing where he would come and he would eat lunch with us. And he was like, I held all six kids. One time, I had to honor this arm to honor this time, and all the other ones under my legs and one in the middle. Like, I'm like, Oh my God, why are you proud of this? This is messed up.

Guy Stephens: 33:36

So so for years, I mean, what was the progress looking like year after year? And I mean, when did things begin to shift?

Robert DeLena: 33:44

So we started around this, the first two years went by, he was really little for the first couple of years. And then third year, we start questioning, you know, the use of a holds and we wanted to try to see them use, you know, different, you know, weighted blankets or, you know, give them some space. And you know, they would kind of Yes, us but they never really would change by the, the beginning of the fourth year. I mean, I was we were actively fighting to get out of there. The problem was, he had now gone to a school that restrained him, right. And he had a one to one aid. So then when they would give us the list of schools that were available to transfer it to, there was like four options, most of which were closer to Boston, which is farther from our house, it was a much more advanced populace of kids. There were kids who had been kicked out of Boston Public Schools. And you know, it had, you know, frankly, had really difficult lives and just looked, they just look so much bigger than Right, right. Look at this little tiny kid and we'd go to the schools and like how can you possibly go here this this feels like a prison. It feels like a school where they're locked down. 24/7 There were all kinds of big security looking guys. And eventually a second school was a hybrid, I would say if something like that. And ironically, it ended up being better because the kids the kids were because they had grown up in the system and we're conditioned They taught Ryan how to avoid restraints, you know, they would say, Listen, they're gonna do this to you if you don't, you know, you know, just give in on some of these little things and don't get to that point. And I think it was, it was an interesting perspective when you look back on it, but it was it was marginally better the second place, but it was it was just only marginally better.

Guy Stephens: 35:20

You know, Ryan, one of the things that stuck with me in the the parts of the book that I've had an opportunity to go through so far, is your memory. You know, thinking back, you know, I mean, for me thinking back to the times when I was much younger, begins harder and harder the older I get. So, you know, you don't have as much distance as I have between the younger years, but you seem to have a lot of memory around those times. You know, what, what do you what sticks out to you, you know, in terms of the time you spent at those first two schools? And, you know, what, what are your memories, as you look back on it?

Unknown: 35:56

What sticks out, I mean, as I got older, in school, number one, I think that the issue became that I was getting older, I was getting bigger, and I definitely I spent more time in the restraint, they could shut things down pretty quickly when I was like, really young. But when I started fighting back, and also the, at this point, the trauma was starting to really take hold in my mind more. So it was turning into these 30 minute, you know, fighting matches with me and the teacher. And then as soon as I fought back, then once I got old enough that I could like, throw a decent punch, then they had the justification of like, well, since you got violent during the restraint. Now you're in timeout for the rest of the day,

Guy Stephens: 36:44

since you got violent when we were on top of you trying to hold you down. And of course, you know, there's no logic to that. And in fact that I mean, when they go hands on with you, you know, you're not controlling. I mean, even if you can punch, I mean, it's not like you're thoughtfully saying, you know, I'm gonna, exactly, you know, you're responding out of stress and fear.

Unknown: 37:04

Yeah, exactly. Like I said, I would just totally blacked out. But yeah, then I spent a lot of time in timeout. So I didn't spend a lot of time in class and there wasn't a lot of learning. Our, our babysitter at the time was also a teacher, it was in training to be a teacher. And I remember that detail exactly, but she taught me how to read after school in our basement, because I was really behind on my reading. Around the time I moved schools at the second school, it was definitely different. They really seem like they were abiding by it, they weren't as deranged, they weren't using it as a punishment, it didn't feel like they were enjoying it as much than ever bragged about it. And also, the teachers were usually the ones who did it, which was the other difference. They had, like their own staff who were like the situation handlers, I described them as they would come into the room, and then they would restrain you, and then they would take you to the side room, which was it wasn't really a seclusion room, because everybody was in there. It was almost like the holding cell. I used to joke with kids, I'm like, What are you in for, you know, but the problem was, had I gone there first, I probably would have been okay, because I probably wouldn't have causes many problems. But at this point, I was so damaged, that whenever I sensed a problem coming, I would either start fighting with the teacher, or I would just run they had a huge canvas and had a bunch of trees on it, I would like climb up a tree. And, you know, hide it, I would like try and hide in one of the buildings, it would turn into this chase across campus. So I had to undo all of that trauma. And I think part of that was a little bit of therapy. And a lot of it was like that said the kids, you know, a lot of times I'd be in this room, and it would be one of the kids or one of the teachers aides who were generally young and, you know, weren't as invested in the method so much were like, okay, you know, let's go through the events. You know, what did this start over? It's like, oh, you know, I, I didn't want to redo this math sheet, I was upset that I did it wrong. And then like, okay, and now you're in this room for the rest of the day, like it doesn't have to be like this. So I started internalize that a little bit more. But that's cool. It was honestly, there was some good times there. I feel like I made a lot of friends. I feel like a lot of the kids there were really good people. And it was it felt kind of like one of those free range schools. Initially, like they had a tree that you were just allowed to climb and kids would like 20 feet up and do it and I was into parkour at the time. So I was teaching all the kids how to do things. I was teaching them how to do flips and stuff. And you know, I tell people some of the things that went on at the school. They don't believe me, there was a time when all the staff were on this flight of stairs and we were running across the hallway, we were jumping over them. And it felt like it was kind of encouraged almost like they, you know, that was just Ryan, he was doing his thing.

Guy Stephens: 40:09

So there were people that valued you for who you were somebody that you weren't?

Unknown: 40:14

Yeah, it felt like my individuality was valued a little bit more. And then around my last year there and actually they changed administrators, like they had a really good I don't know what his title was, I assume he was the principal. He, I think his name was Dr. Small. And he was this guy who everybody loved he like, you know, there was a student who needed a heart transplant and he like, helped her get a heart it was like, and then when he left and this other person came in it like totally switched back and got really rigid. Again, she was definitely afraid to stand out it was, it was this whole shift. And I was really upset that it shifted, because for a while it was nice,

Robert DeLena: 40:55

just for context. Now at home, obviously, we've now no restraint is awful, we've stopped and we were advocating for schools not to do it, we were sort of forced into the second school because we didn't have a choice. But we we were pretty sure that they restraint much, much less at that school, it happened maybe once every once a month at this point. Also, just in terms of the book, you know, we started skiing at this point, and the only reason I'm gonna introduce skiing is because I was taking Ryan on weekends to parts in New England, and we started traveling around the country, I start seeing a much different kid than everybody else when he was away from all that. And it was just the two of us, we would go through airports and hotels, and we would wait and lift lines, and we would ski all day long. And we go back to hotels and have dinners. See this kid I'm saying he's doing all of these things yet he can't go to the water fountain without somebody you know with him or go to the bathroom on his own. At this point, he was on maybe three medicines to hit the psychotics and a mood stabilizer. And I'm now I'm starting to question the doctors in addition to question the educators. So that so that just just to kind of get you to that part of the story. There was two parallel tracks, we call it on the book, there was the skiing version of Ryan and there was the school version, Orion, still radically different, but he wasn't, you know, the damage of the restraints, I think was was more in that first school. Yeah, well,

Guy Stephens: 42:11

you know, it's funny, I was getting ready to head where you're heading. And I just want to ask one kind of follow up question. In terms of that, that first school, and then I want to get into the transition, because, you know, as I think about some of the things you shared in the book, a lot of IT related, you know, I could relate to, there were a lot of places where we would go when my son was young, that he was not able to meet the expectations in those places. And I was a dad of the child that was not successful in places that, you know, even when we're trying to do the right thing, whether it was a party or, you know, a scouting event or something else, you know, it was often that those expectations were really tough on my son. And, you know, it took me a while to kind of learn, you know, how to better support him. And also, you know, you know, really reframing some of my own expectations, in terms of, you know, how to how to help him be successful, I never was one much for diagnoses. Really, what mattered to me is like, like, like you, Ryan, my son. You know, while when he was young, I mean, we knew that we knew that he was different than than other kids. But we also saw these special strengths and abilities. And, you know, you know, I think about the vocabulary, I mean, when when my son, you know, really got speaking, he had a really extensive vocabulary, and he would get really focused on certain things. And, you know, it's just, there were there were things that, you know, were different, but that were really strengths that nobody else was seeing at the time. And then eventually you see them through something like what you're talking about. But I have one final question on kind of the early years of school, and then I wouldn't really want to transition on, you know, kind of just that how you began to see a different child. We work with somebody named Dr. Search anchor, who I think really the world of, he wrote a couple books about, you know, better supporting kids book called self reg. But Stewart says something really meaningful in that. When you see a child differently, you see a different child, and in your case, being began to be the place where you saw Ryan differently and solid, different person. So we'll get there in one second. But, Ryan, I have a kind of one last question for you. In terms of kind of thinking back to those early years, where this was happening a lot to you. Why do you think that the staff felt that that was necessary? And why do you think they were doing it?

Unknown: 44:33

Ah, it was really, it. It felt like a methodology. It felt like at the first school, it was ingrained in what they do, you know, that there's places and there's groups and there's people who like, form around a belief that something is the way and that first school was definitely this is the way there is no other way than this.

Guy Stephens: 44:56

Yeah. And that's a great way to put it because I mean, we often talk about how Oh, you know, you can look at schools that work really with the same kids. I mean, you know, I mean, they may have different names, but they're the same kids. And school one is really punitive and does a lot of things like restraint, seclusion, school, two doesn't. It's not the kids that are different. It's the adults. It's the mindset of the adults, right? Yeah, cuz that's

Unknown: 45:17

what I was gonna say, a school. Number two, it felt like a lot of people were just kind of doing their jobs. You know, it's tough. They they got handed a lot of kids who had a lot of damage. But it didn't feel like restraints were a part of the ideology. It was more a byproduct of just people doing what they had to do, you know?

Guy Stephens: 45:40

Right. Right. So one last question on that. If you were able to say something to some of those people that had done this to you that had traumatized you, as a young child, I mean, what would be your message for them today?

Unknown: 46:01

That is a hard question to answer. The first answer that came to my mind was look at me now. Because I just want to shine on them a little bit.

Guy Stephens: 46:12

And you know, that's a good answer. Because, you know, I think I think I read, and I've heard this with other kids, too. Like, you're you're six years old and being told you're gonna end up in jail, right? You know, these terrible things that people think sometimes,

Unknown: 46:26

huh? Yeah. Well give me now Thanks for making me a published author, all the things go down the list. But honestly, I mean, if I could come up with a more thought out answer, I guess I would just say like, think about what you're doing. Just like, look at this as a human kid, just think about how this is gonna affect their brain, their value of themselves, their place in the world growing up, just like Get it through your head, because I got lucky that they made it this far. Yeah, people are gonna carry that with him. And it's gonna destroy him forever.

Guy Stephens: 46:59

Absolutely, absolutely. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about, you know, where you were beginning to take us, Robert, in terms of you began suddenly to have experiences with Ryan, where you were going skiing, and I remember reading that, like, initially were like, as probably isn't going to work. And you know, you're you only planned a couple steps ahead, because you were like, your expectations weren't high that this, and somehow this turned into something magical. So walk us through that, you know, how did that begin? And, you know, tell us how it got you suddenly kind of seeing Ryan differently and what that's led to?

Robert DeLena: 47:36

Yep. So I mean, when we decided to stop restraining we needed, you needed to know, right when things right had a sister that was 16 months younger, they didn't fight too much. But if they did get in it, and they were starting to get on each other's nerves, I learned that distraction was the only way. And then oftentimes, that meant taking him from the situation. And so usually I'd throw him in the car and we'd go to Home Depot and walk around Home Depot for an hour, and I'd get stuck buying some giant wrench that I could never use it because I had no idea how to use it or some piece of equipment, they didn't know what to do with and it just, you know, to keep them happy. And so I got so tired of that. And we tried different sports, we tried different athletic stuff. He loved the park. He loved being outside, when we used to go to this soccer, indoor soccer plays for birthday parties, and it probably had some, you know, humiliating defeats there at every birthday party we ever went to. But it was right near this ski little ski hill that it's a couple of, you know, towns over from us. And I must have just filed it away. I hadn't skied since I was a little kid. And I didn't see that much even then. It had been 25 years and one day during Christmas break when he was home for a week and my daughter was home for a week and we had nothing to do it was winter in New England and they were getting into it. I just threw him in the car. I put a bike helmet on him and gloves and a coat and we drove to the ski hill and I told him we're going skiing and you know what made me do it? I have no idea it maybe it was divine intervention. I don't know we drive there and we go through the rental. Ryan couldn't wait for anything. He was terrible waiting. He just had no ability to modulate that. So just the rental process if you've ever

Guy Stephens: 49:06

seen I know I can absolutely.

Robert DeLena: 49:09

It's awful when measuring your feet and your weight and and the height and everything. And so we finally we stumble out onto the little slope and there's a magic carpet is like the thing at the airport that moves you but it's on a little hill and it takes you up and we shot onto that thing and he hadn't had it between my legs and it wasn't till I got to the top that I said I haven't told him anything about skiing I don't even remember like what to tell him. But here we are standing on this thing. And I started to talk to him and he looked at me and he nodded and he could tell he wasn't listening. And he just turned and he shot straight down the hill and he made this turn back toward the with the lift began and how the hell did he do that? He doesn't even know what he's doing. I don't even know how to do that. And I've done this before. And so I stumbled down and we got back in the line and I don't know if they just had something clicked that day we we lasted a couple hours and I'll have Brian tell his version but we lasted a couple of hours there. And I remember driving home and thinking, you know, that wasn't terrible. It was, you know, that's why we're the bar had been set in our in our house was terrible and not terrible and it wasn't terrible. And it was actually kind of fun as we went back the next day, and it just became our thing.

Guy Stephens: 50:16

So So Ryan, tell me a bit about your early memories of some of those trips. I mean, I know at some point, you began to work with a coach and you know, probably before you would have been reasonably ready, we're going down, what BlackDiamond trails and things like that. But tell me a little bit about your your recollection from early on, when you know, you first were introduced to skiing and you know, kind of where things went from there.

Unknown: 50:39

It clicked with me pretty instantly, physically and mentally. Like, we had a whole graveyard of sports that I had tried in the garage that just I didn't take to them. I like the individuality of skiing and ever was a big, like team sports competition kind of guy like I didn't like the feeling of losing because it made me feel like loser. You know, even if you played your best if the other team beat you, it just wasn't good enough. Skiing, you know, your best is always your own measure of it. And it doesn't even need to be a performative thing. It can just be fun. Um, but yeah, I don't remember him trying to explain to me anything. I don't remember the rental process even being that bad. I know the boots were uncomfortable, but I just kind of dealt with it. And I just went down the hill, because that was my understanding of skiing was it was a way to get down a snowy hill. And I wanted to go back into the line. And I let my edges take me there. And that was fun. So we just did it again and again and again. Eventually, we got a lesson. We got an instructor. And I was already doing the magic carpet. So we skipped that step and the lesson,

Guy Stephens: 51:58

and that had gone into lodge right at that point. Okay, okay. Totally unsure how things are going but the best right?

Unknown: 52:06

Bathroom? I think. So, yeah, um, she's like, Okay, well, if you're gonna ski you need to learn how to turn. I'm like, okay, she showed me how to turn. And I picked it up pretty quickly. So then, I was like, we grabbed the lift. So we go up the lift, and she takes me down the blue square. And you know, if you don't know much about skiing, because green circle, blue square, Black Diamond, double black, triple black now at Big Sky and smuggler's notch, and nowhere else in the world. So we go down the blue, which is like 200 feet. But compared to the magic carpet, which is 40 feet, it's a lot bigger, and there's other people and stuff. And we do big S turns across the whole thing. And I haven't fallen yet. We do that like four times. Then I go over to the Black Diamond. And he hadn't even explained to me the ratings yet. I didn't know where it went, or what it meant. I just knew that we went the other way, the first time. And we haven't been this way. So I asked, Hey, can we do it? And my instructor was like, Yeah, let's do it. So this one was steeper, and I kicked the ski off. And it kind of felt like this grand adventure, getting the ski back on. And it was just like an epic on this little hill. It was about the most extreme thing you could feel on a hill that big. And when I skied down the mountain, I didn't really think anything of it. It just was what it was to me. There was a whole line of instructors. And there was this lady who I now know is the ski school director who was standing there, and they're all looking at me like what you know, and she actually kneel down to me and she's like, did you do that on your first day like, yeah, and she's like, nice job. And I didn't get it that that was unusual. I thought that that was a normal ski progression. When I became an instructor, and I had kids for six weeks who were still on the magic carpet. Then I realized that I had something natural for skiing. It was really unusual.

Guy Stephens: 54:10

Now how old were you at this time that you that story? How old are seven? Wow, wow. Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't remember getting off the bunny slope. But that's a whole nother story. But

Robert DeLena: 54:20

that's where I assumed he was gonna spend the day into the bathroom, like, alright, I don't want to watch this. It's gonna be boring. And then when I came back out, and they were gone, like, oh, maybe there's another area that they take them to I never thought in my wildest dreams, they would ride the lift and come back down.

Guy Stephens: 54:33

So So you know, from here, you guys begin to go on more of these excursions you eventually buy your own gear, so you're not wearing the the terrible boots for. So tell me what happens then. I mean, you know, and really, you know, one of the things I want to hear from both of you is, you know, I mean one point this is probably a really welcomed version. So, you know, things have been tough things have been hard, but you know, I'm sure that you know, I mean, unfortunately Ryan and I'm sure that be Based on what you were going through, you didn't feel good about yourself. I mean, you know, a lot of times you were being restrained, you were being corrected, you know, you were probably not feeling really successful. But suddenly, there's this thing that, you know, you're really successful, you know, at. So I'd love to hear even some about, you know, how this began to be a bit of a healing journey for you as well.

Unknown: 55:21

You know, I always tell people that the thing that young people in this world need the most right now is a skill that they can build, that they'll constantly see little bits of improvement every day at, and if not, every day, every week, just something that they can build and progress out and come back to that's, you know, physical or mental, but as individual, because that can be really healing, by all means I shouldn't feel as confident as I do walk as tall as I do, I shouldn't have the self efficacy that I do. And that comes from skiing, from climbing from the sports, where you start to internalize the progress, and realize, like, oh, this thing was a little bit unusual. And it's challenging. I put in the work and make that happen, you start to apply that attitude to other aspects of your life. So I think that's how skiing can be healing it was for me and how it was for everybody. But really, before I even thought that deep about it, it was just a fun thing that I got to have in a life that was otherwise pretty negative and empty for me. You know, all of a sudden, I could get through the week because I knew on Saturday, we were gonna go skiing, and it was a cool little father son adventure, and we went to watch you sit and watch the news. It was maybe the worst thing that happened to us. They'd had our along with lines, and it was like ice moguls, and I was like, falling all over the place. People were skiing around me above me below me. And I was just like, I don't like this mountain. And then he started telling me about the mountains in New Hampshire. And if you want to know how little we knew, I'm like, how tall are they is like, I think they're 10,000 feet. We had no idea. But I was like, I want to ski in New Hampshire this weekend. So we ended up going to Loon And loon became our home mountain. And this is the part of the story where I'm so grateful we didn't die. We had no idea we were doing we were like skiing in the woods and ending up in creek beds and having a hike out we were trying to take snowmobile roads between the mountain and you know, getting lost. We were separating, you know, Nashoba Valley. If you ski to the bottom of the parking lot, you're gonna find each other at Woon, you can ski to different lifts and different based areas. And, you know, it was really, there were there was some potential for things to go wrong. But things didn't go wrong. And when they did, it was just part of the adventure. So we just had fun. And the natural progression of it was that we would just keep going bigger places. So we went to snow, I skied my first double black diamond despite his resistance to that. When we went out west, yeah. Um, I actually, I dropped a cliff for the first time, which is a thing that you see on YouTube and seeing ski movies. And it's like a pretty usual thing. You know, they, the cliff had multiple tracks leading to the edge of it. And it's not very big. It's only like 20 feet, you know, it's not like El Cap. But then I was coming back to school number one and telling them about this. And they were trying to use it as an excuse that I wasn't safe, that like my risk taking in skiing wasn't healthy. And it was actually a sign that I like wanted to die. And that's not the case of skiing at all. Skiing. Harder terrain is a way to feel alive. It's about personal growth. It's not about pushing an edge.

Guy Stephens: 59:06

And it's about being an individual. Right. I mean, you know, I think so often, so many of the issues that route back to what goes wrong in school for kids, is that, you know, individualism, you know, we schools are like bringing people together and wanting to make everybody the same, wanting everybody to be compliant. Right. I mean, this whole focus on compliance, I think is, is not only not productive for a lot of kids, it's dangerous for some kids, because in the name of compliance, you know, kids are restrained or secluded, they're, you know, subjected to corporal punishment because they didn't comply. And of course, that has an effect on us as adults as well, right? I'm the kind of guy now that questions things and, you know, even if I go to my doctor, and my doctor says, Okay, here's x, y, z on but what about this, do you think we should? Because that's how I my brain thinks like, you know, I should question things. That's not always welcome. But at the same time, I think it's really important because you If we become compliant adults, we end up doing things that we've been told to do that again, you know, Robert, like sharing your story, it's like these experts told us this is what we should do. You know, and I think there's some some lesson there for sure. But, you know, I think just the meeting individual's needs and differences. You know, Ryan, you've got amazing talent and capabilities, yet in the system that was not designed to appreciate that, you know, it was a really tough experience. You know, Robert, I've got to think that there was a time that well, hold on, I got one more question for you, Ryan. And I'm sorry, I'm gonna pause here and say, anybody that's watching, because I'm so excited about this conversation. And I have lots to ask you. But I want to be fair here that if you're watching live, and you've got a question or comment, please put it in the chat now. And I can try to get to a couple of questions here in just a few minutes. But I wanted to ask, so suddenly, this time you're spending together that's really positive time. I mean, I'm gonna guess that that had some impact, kind of secondarily, in terms of like, this relationship was probably growing between the two of you. And you know, we often say that, you know, the, the best way to heal from trauma or adversity is like that one relationship sometimes can really make a difference. And what do you think? Right. I mean, did you feel like that relationship between you and your dad was, was growing during this time as well? And was that helping? Oh, of course. Yeah.

Unknown: 1:01:27

I mean, it was our thing. That's, you know, like I said, Before, it was it was the father son activity. And I think it was cool, because it wasn't, like a lot of activities where, you know, the dad did it growing up and wants to try and make you like it and you aren't,

Guy Stephens: 1:01:42

that would have been baseball, right, Robert?

Unknown: 1:01:46

I don't even remember him trying to get me to do baseball. So I, I don't want to shade baseball. But um, it was cool, because we were figuring it out together. So it was like a team adventure thing. And we had a lot of good talks on the chairlift and in the car ride up. And, you know, we, we talked about the trail maps and, you know, thought of fun places we hadn't been yet that we should go, there was a great period of growth for our relationship,

Guy Stephens: 1:02:14

I'm sure. And you know, as I look at the title, you know, how skiing saved my son's life. And you know, I'm just thinking to myself, it's like, it's more than skiing, there was that connection to and what you guys were doing? Yeah, that's really great. So

Robert DeLena: 1:02:25

quickly put in a position, he was much better than me. I mean, so he, you know, I can relate to that. I was the one coaching me and he was making decisions as to where we should go, you know, when again, that parallel tracks concept, here's a kid who isn't allowed to do anything when he's in school, and now he's out, we're in these mountains, and, you know, life or death, but you could end up in a bad place. And I'm relying on his 910 year old kids to get us out of jams all the time. So I think it was a real confidence builder for him.

Guy Stephens: 1:02:53

Yeah, no, absolutely. And certainly the, I think the growth of the relationship, there was probably really meaningful. But but I'm sure there was a time that you were kind of reflecting on things, you know, early on, and thinking, you know, I mean, right now, here's Ryan in college, not far from the end, this this successful, you know, athlete and doing these amazing things. And I want to hit on some of those amazing places you've been. But I'm sure there was a time where, you know, just getting through the week or getting through the day was really difficult. I'm sure you're really proud now of all that, you know, Ryan's accomplished? And tell me a little bit.

Robert DeLena: 1:03:27

No, I think that light bulb moment was, you know, Ryan was difficult than Ryan was damaged, and then it home and in school, whenever anything went wrong, it just went went so wrong because of the adults pouncing right. And not just restraint, but just even mentally just they, you know, they're in the room. And somehow we'd get out of the world, you get out into the mountains, and we drive and would fly places. And Like Ryan said, things went wrong all the time. It just became part of the adventure because the temperature was just, you know, we just relaxed and, and we watched SAR resiliency in him that nobody else thought was there, doctors didn't think was there. That's why he needed all these medical schools in think he was there. That's why he needs these special programs. And it was, you know, he maybe he doesn't need any of this, maybe we were wrong from the start, we got down this path, and we never should have gone down. And now I gotta find a way to get him out. And once I had a light bulb clicked, I started to really fight and get him back to public school, we found a therapist that took them off all his medication, and it you know, it but that couldn't have happened without Ryan Ryan couldn't Ryan needed to, you know, both heal and advance at the same time. And that's a lot to ask a kid because socially, all this is going on in social media, and he's, he's just a kid. And he's being asked to heal from trauma and, you know, take on this, you know, this new role as a typical kid, and if you failed at any moment, he was right back to where it was before. So I'm incredibly proud of you know what, no matter what he's become, he's already proven everybody wrong. And I say this in the book including me. So I mean, that's, you know, that's, that's a pre The great thing for a 21 year old and he's not done yet. So

Guy Stephens: 1:05:03

yeah, I was thinking the same. So, right, tell me some of the things that you're proud of stuff in terms of, you know, and relate it to anything you want to relate it to whether it be your skiing, or whether it be your your journey. What are you really proud of the things that you've kind of been through and the things you've accomplished?

Unknown: 1:05:22

Well, I guess, for starters, I'm hanging on as long as they did, I guess, I at any point had I just given up and just adopted victimhood as a mentality, I wouldn't have made it this far. Getting back to public school and thriving, like, I didn't just go there. And you know, say I did it and you know, was the kid who didn't get involved in any activities I got back there. And I proved, most importantly to myself that I could be in the normal world, without all of this stuff going on. And I could thrive because when I was still in those schools, even as I was getting more involved in activities, I always, I always felt like an outsider. And I always felt like if I got to college, or somewhere, I wouldn't be able to be like everybody else. And of course, just proud of the mountain progress. You know, I've skied some of the hardest in mountains runs, I've gone on expeditions, climbed, you know, and skied on volcanoes done multi day traverses, where you're sleeping on rock walls, you know, got into the guiding world, I kind of got my foot in the door with, with ice axe expeditions and have gotten the tail guide and Antarctica in the Arctic. That's small Bard. If you're going to pronounce that one, you become a climber. And I've gotten to a really strong level of climbing to, you know, playing on five twelves, which is something that, you know, you have to train your mind, your body, your breath, work, everything in you to be able to climb, and I've gotten a few of those that I would say, those are some of the things that I'm most proud

Guy Stephens: 1:07:04

of. And, of course, as your dad pointed out a minute ago, you know, you're just getting started here. And there's a couple of things I want to hit kind of like for future, you know, for future extreme Ryan, like where you're headed. And first is we talked, as we were getting ready to come on air here. You know, I was just, you know, saying how much I appreciate the fact that you both had taken the time to write this book. And, and part of this book is really about promoting change. So tell me, I mean, do you have any, any goals in terms of trying to impact change? I mean, that's obviously what this book is about, is that still something it's kind of highly on your list in terms of, you know, trying to prevent others going through the kinds of things that you went through?

Unknown: 1:07:41

I think right now, number one is just the awareness, right? It's just how many eyes and ears can we get this book to, to let people in the world know, this is what's happening. And I think right now, we've validated a lot of people's journeys, and had some adults come to me and say, Oh, my kid is going through this. And they're, you know, struggling with XY and Z and had some adults say, like, Oh, this is how I grew up. And I never had the words to put it this way. That has been a cool part of the journey. But I think getting it to the ordinary person and waking them up and adding this to the list of areas that need to be changed. Right now. We have this is an era of like, rapid progress, you know, we're, we're trying to end racism and homophobia and all of you know, you know, trigger a lot of things that need to be ended. And it's it's just it's not on anybody's list to reform schools for special needs kids, but it fits the era right now. We're trying to shatter anything that hinders people who are different and disadvantaged.

Guy Stephens: 1:08:56

Well, I get on list. Yeah, I mean, I can assure you, it's on our list here. And, you know, we've got, I mean, a great community of people, probably over over 20, some 1000 people that are also, I think, very dedicated to those kinds of changes as well. There's a lot of work to be done. But you know, we're with you with that. Asscher, how about you, Robert, what are your your your, you know, kind of hopes or next step in terms? Yeah,

Robert DeLena: 1:09:19

it's interesting, and in a way, it's counterintuitive. I think we're the oddest poster. Boys, Orion is for this cause because what we saw along the way, were a lot of the kids that were in foster care or lead really difficult lives and ended up in these schools, really, through no fault of their own. Were the ones who were the most, you know, abused by the system. And you know, here, but here we are, we were in the suburbs, to lawyers, you know, and we still put a kid in this in this position. We know it could happen to us, it can happen to anyone, because we just listened when we should we listen to doctors, and you know, Massachusetts has the best hospitals in the world and we would meet with people and they were have, you know a lot of impressive degrees behind their desk when you look behind, you know, but that doesn't mean they know your kid better than you know, you're absolutely one thing I learned. And if we, if anything, we can just get that messaging out, and then really drill down on the details. Because I don't I don't think when I tell the story, people, their first reaction is always, well, that doesn't go on anymore, right? They don't restrain kids anymore, I suppose. And I say,

Guy Stephens: 1:10:21

they don't do that in our state. They don't do that in our area.

Robert DeLena: 1:10:24

No idea. And I tell I'd said you would not believe what goes on in these places. And in will go on unless it's changed. And I you know, your organization is, you know, you know, people owe such a debt of gratitude that you're out there fighting every day, and all these people that are on this, you know, that it's amazing to me, how many people it's impacted. But you know, it seems to be in every state and even the woman from Canada who said, it goes on to candidates. It's crazy in this day and age that it does, but you know, here we are. So I'm hopefully our you know, our our story, you know, we'll put a face to it. And we'll put some context around it. And we'll make people just sort of take a second look. And if that happens, I think once you know sunlights, the best disinfectant once you do that, there's no way that this system survives. I'm sorry,

Guy Stephens: 1:11:10

it just Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I certainly hope that that is that is true. And we want to do anything we can to shine light on this. And, you know, I'm looking forward to seeing more, let me get to a couple of the comments that we have here, just because I've been a little selfishly just absorbed in the conversation, and I apologize. Darcy said, They hurt me more than I heard them my eight year old granddaughter, after repeated fight flight and restraints, and isolation. See, Angie says why don't we call this what it really is, it's abuse, abuse, targeting children with disabilities, children, of minorities, children of lower income levels. Just kind of looking through these hear this from Jessica, this breaks my heart for you, Ryan. And for my son who has also gone through this. I've apologized so many times, because I didn't know. And I wasn't taught better, but better, less traumatizing ways to help him. And you know, again, you know, I'm a firm believer of the idea that when we know better, we do better. And, you know, I'm not interested in judging anybody on their journey. But, you know, once we're able to get people better ways of doing things, and I think we have an obligation to do better. And you said, I'm sorry, sorry, this happened to you, Ryan. But I'm really happy that you and your parents have triumphed over this. Yep. And let's see what else we have here. Artist says it's a privilege to hear your story. Thank you for sharing it. Kara said Thank you, Ryan, for sharing your story. My son has not yet recovered from restraint, but we're working on it. And it really can. I mean, this is really long term impact. And you know, you're You're doing fantastic. But you know, these things don't just go away, you know, but you know, you're You're doing fantastic. I'm excited to read your book, another one here. I can't wait to read the book. Thank you, Ryan, and Robert, for sharing your story. Another thank you for sharing your story. Each parent, teacher or person that works with kids should read this nice comment here for the dads. And you know, I've got to agree, Robert, you know, I think that there was so much more to then scanned all of this. And that may have been the thing that brought this together and how amazing I mean, you know, sometimes you don't want know why the universe works the way it does. But you know, it's nice to know, in Maryland public schools, they do not restraint and seclusion. Well, that's not exactly true, unfortunately.

Unknown: 1:13:35

All right, says they do? Oh, they

Guy Stephens: 1:13:37

do. Okay, I'm sorry. I read that wrong. Thank you, Ryan. My eyes got ahead of me here. Yeah, in fact, you know, we pass legislation in Maryland recently to try to limit the use of seclusion. Yes, but still listen to disabled self advocates, trust your kid believe in them. So a lot, a lot of people kind of weighing in here. Princeville, Illinois, schools definitely need to help to stop seclusion and restraint. And again, you know, thank you for speaking out. And lots of things you here's, here's for both of you. This has been, you know, a really fantastic time spent with both of you. And I so appreciate, you know, what you've done. And, you know, as I said, I'm still working through the book, but I've made good progress here. And certainly, we would encourage people, we'll put the link again in the chat, to get a copy of the book and read it. And I think you sharing your story like this, you know, again, let's let's hope that this gets more light on things. And I love that your story is also being shared kind of in two different pathways, both kind of in the skiing world and also in, in kind of the education and discipline world. And hopefully, that'll get more eyes on this story than might otherwise see it. But this work is so important. And I guess the thing I want to kind of leave with here. Ryan, I'm gonna ask you both a question, but in terms of what's next for you, so we talked about what's next From an advocacy standpoint, but like, what's next for you in life? Well, what are some of the goals that you have now? And, you know, kind of what it you know, you're getting ready to graduate here soon. What do you see happening for you, you know, kind of in the future?

Unknown: 1:15:13

Well, I'll start guiding full time after I get out of here. Hopefully, this book continues to have opportunities for me to grow as a writer to you and help make that platform, part of what I do. Obviously, in the mountains, I'd love to continue getting stronger and climbing doing longer, harder roots. Start doing multiday stuff like the walls in Yosemite, you bigger ski expeditions go to places like the Arctic, and, you know, like the peonies, some of these far out mountain ranges that aren't getting skied in a lot, and start pushing, first a sense, start pushing self supported expeditions into these places that, you know, so few people in the world get to see and bring back content. So people around here who might not be out there can enjoy it.

Guy Stephens: 1:16:06

That's great. That's great. Well, you know, please share with me as you're producing content, we'd love to share it and highlight kind of your journey as it continues. I really appreciate you being here today. Robert, how about you, you know, kind of what do you see? What do you see coming up next? And, you know, how can we continue to kind of collaborate together and hopefully bring about some change?

Robert DeLena: 1:16:25

I mean, certainly on this issue. I mean, we're there if you need us, it's, you know, Massachusetts's probably got one of the just from the group that I've met the locally, they seem pretty, you know, you know, advanced and they're fighting this in the right way. But it's still it's still an uphill battle in any state. And I think it's, it's, it's they're going to need, it needs some, you know, anecdotal stories like ours, I think. And that's, that's where we can help. You know, for me going forward, you know, I see, I see a generation of kids that I worry about, it's not just the kids that that have disabilities, but you know, even the neurotypical kids look at, statistically, they're all sad, they're all you know, they're all depressed that, you know, COVID didn't help. But beyond that, the phone and social media is just, it just damages them on a daily basis. What I watched happen with Ryan is if they have a passion, if they're outside, if they're doing something, they're challenging themselves, you know, it just changes the way they look at life. And so I, I haven't quite figured it out yet. I don't know I drag a bunch of kids to a ski hill. But you know, maybe that's it, maybe it's an inner city program, where you get kids outside their comfort zone for a day, they try something new, they explore, experience, something that they never would, and we've had, we've had the you know, the privilege and the chance to do that with some kids from my daughter's school and kids that you never thought would become skiers and they take it, they like it. And, you know, it's an expensive sport, it's hard. It's requires a lot of travel. But, you know, anything like that, where they're just forced to do something that isn't sitting in a room staring at that, you know, that the phone

Guy Stephens: 1:17:55

it's a great idea. You know, I remember when my son was having some challenges early on, and it was just like, school was not a good fit for him. And it wasn't, it wasn't he was wrong for school, school was wrong for him. And I remember very early on thinking like, my son needed, like some kind of adventure school, right? Someplace where he could be outside and be doing things with his hands and experiencing things and, you know, to put a five or six year old in a classroom, unexpected, they're just going to sit there and absorb information and comply with every we're missing the mark. And, you know, there's people that have shown there are better ways. So maybe, maybe one day Ryan can get a good corporate sponsorship, and some money can go into, you know, coming up with a program of some kind that, you know, can help serve kids that aren't being served well, in other places. So lots of things to look forward to. It's been great to have you both here. I'm so glad to have had the opportunity to meet you both. And again, you know, encourage people, get yourself a copy of the book, read it. Share your thoughts with us. And, you know, we'll look forward to keeping in touch with you in the future.

Robert DeLena: 1:18:59

Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. Appreciate. Absolutely. Well, thanks, everybody that joined. Appreciate it.

Guy Stephens: 1:19:03

Yep. And thank you, Ryan. I'm going to let the audience here go if you guys want to hold on for one second here. Sounds good. All right. Bye. Bye. Bye, everybody.